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Thread: Mining gravel/sand from Montana Creek

  1. #21
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChugiakTinkerer View Post
    It looks like there is a mineral closure order (MCO 455).



    Location of Michele Dr in bold. I'm pretty sure this means DNR does not have a gravel sale there.
    Excellent info! Thank you. The affected areas are definitely below the ordinary high water mark (OHWM).

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    It’s an interesting state we live in. I once dimed a guy to DEC for an illegal septic install. They told me I had to file an APRA request to find out if it was permitted properly. Also the state division of mining granted a gold mining permit on land they had conveyed to our city years prior. There is no gold. The city filed suit, and lost.

    People pretty much do whatever in the heck they want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gbflyer View Post
    It’s an interesting state we live in. I once dimed a guy to DEC for an illegal septic install. They told me I had to file an APRA request to find out if it was permitted properly. Also the state division of mining granted a gold mining permit on land they had conveyed to our city years prior. There is no gold. The city filed suit, and lost.

    People pretty much do whatever in the heck they want.
    I have noticed that.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm all for individual liberty and personal freedom. However, when someone else's actions affect my property or the property of the general public (i.e. public land), then I have a problem with it. And this includes air, groundwater, etc., as well.

    Public land is essentially the property of all of us and when someone damages it with illegal mining, dumping trash, releasing toxic substances, etc., everyone should be upset.

    On another note, the crime in AK is a similar situation. Just seems like a free-for-all these days. There's virtually no penalty for all but the most severe crimes, and the criminals just continue doing their thing, with no repercussions.

    The State needs to evaluate its budget and direct more funds to the actual essential services for which the concept of government was created thousands of years ago...namely, public safety, protection of public property, etc. The State wastes entirely too much money on programs for which government really has no business being involved. Not to mention, all the government contracts awarded to companies charging exorbitant prices for various goods and services is a problem. I'm pretty sure a lot of those contracts probably go to people with ties to politicians and bureaucrats.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by alaskanfarmer View Post
    I have noticed that.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm all for individual liberty and personal freedom. However, when someone else's actions affect my property or the property of the general public (i.e. public land), then I have a problem with it. And this includes air, groundwater, etc., as well.

    Public land is essentially the property of all of us and when someone damages it with illegal mining, dumping trash, releasing toxic substances, etc., everyone should be upset.

    On another note, the crime in AK is a similar situation. Just seems like a free-for-all these days. There's virtually no penalty for all but the most severe crimes, and the criminals just continue doing their thing, with no repercussions.

    The State needs to evaluate its budget and direct more funds to the actual essential services for which the concept of government was created thousands of years ago...namely, public safety, protection of public property, etc. The State wastes entirely too much money on programs for which government really has no business being involved. Not to mention, all the government contracts awarded to companies charging exorbitant prices for various goods and services is a problem. I'm pretty sure a lot of those contracts probably go to people with ties to politicians and bureaucrats.
    Therein lies the problem...DECs budget has been slashed over the last 5 years. Three offices have closed altogether, moving all functions to Anchorage. Staffing has been reduced by more that 25% in most programs, formal training has been all but eliminated and travel to do inspections cut by 50%. With federal funding trending down, its just going to get worse.

  7. #27
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    This area also falls within the trophy rainbow management rules. And those are definitely salmon spawning beds; primarily chums and pinks now, but some years the kings spawn there, too.

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    Well, I've contacted every federal, state, and borough agency who could possibly have any jurisdiction with this situation and so far only EPA and USFWS have followed up with me saying they are going to look into it. Nothing at all back from USACE, DEC, DNR, ADFG, or the borough code compliance people. I contacted all of them the morning of Tuesday the 28th.

    I'm not giving up on this. Why do we pay taxes if none of these agencies actually enforce anything when presented with a detailed explanation of the violations and even pictures? I'll give them another week or so and if I don't hear anything positive, I'll ratchet it up a notch or two.

  9. #29
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    Huh....but I read on the internet that we live under the thumb of a tyrannical deep state that controls every facet of our lives...weird....
    "– Gas boats are bad enough, autos are an invention of the devil, and airplanes are worse." ~Allen Hasselborg

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    Quote Originally Posted by alaskanfarmer View Post
    Well, I've contacted every federal, state, and borough agency who could possibly have any jurisdiction with this situation and so far only EPA and USFWS have followed up with me saying they are going to look into it. Nothing at all back from USACE, DEC, DNR, ADFG, or the borough code compliance people. I contacted all of them the morning of Tuesday the 28th.

    I'm not giving up on this. Why do we pay taxes if none of these agencies actually enforce anything when presented with a detailed explanation of the violations and even pictures? I'll give them another week or so and if I don't hear anything positive, I'll ratchet it up a notch or two.

    The fact that you've had to contact so many different alphabet arms of the government is the problem. One of them might know who is responsible for the area and expecting 37 different alphabet arms of the government to get back to you after they have to figure out if they are even allowed to discuss the matter with you is the problem. You've contact just about every government identity, except the Coast Guard, and they don't know what to do. The problem is there are too many government entities that could be responsible and not a single one that is. What if this guy has a permit from one of these 64 governmental allowing him to do this? Have you asked him if he has a permit?
    “I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” Physicist ― Richard Feynman


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    Quote Originally Posted by Patsfan54 View Post
    The fact that you've had to contact so many different alphabet arms of the government is the problem. One of them might know who is responsible for the area and expecting 37 different alphabet arms of the government to get back to you after they have to figure out if they are even allowed to discuss the matter with you is the problem. You've contact just about every government identity, except the Coast Guard, and they don't know what to do. The problem is there are too many government entities that could be responsible and not a single one that is. What if this guy has a permit from one of these 64 governmental allowing him to do this? Have you asked him if he has a permit?
    Excellent point. I concur.

    I've yet to see the guy. Everytime I go out there, nobody is there. It's a vacation/weekend cabin, not a full timer. Figured for sure they'd be there Memorial day weekend, but weren't.

    I truly doubt he has any sort of permit, given the various state laws I've found which mention anadromous streams, etc and the fact that it appears the work is finished but there has been no attempt at streambank stabilization, etc. If the Corps and other agencies would have issued a permit, it certainly would have included getting some erosion control on the now-exposed sand banks and removing all the cut trees they placed in the streambed. Not to mention, the work was so haphazard, it looks like it would if you gave a 9 year old an excavator and told him to go play in the creek. Zero chance he has a permit.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patsfan54 View Post
    The fact that you've had to contact so many different alphabet arms of the government is the problem. One of them might know who is responsible for the area and expecting 37 different alphabet arms of the government to get back to you after they have to figure out if they are even allowed to discuss the matter with you is the problem. You've contact just about every government identity, except the Coast Guard, and they don't know what to do. The problem is there are too many government entities that could be responsible and not a single one that is. What if this guy has a permit from one of these 64 governmental allowing him to do this? Have you asked him if he has a permit?
    Many false assumptions in this post. Just because agencies haven’t responded to the person who reported an incident doesn’t mean nothing is being done. Appropriate agencies are assessing the incident and appreciate the report of the activity. Keep up the good work of reporting questionable activity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aktally View Post
    Many false assumptions in this post. Just because agencies haven’t responded to the person who reported an incident doesn’t mean nothing is being done. Appropriate agencies are assessing the incident and appreciate the report of the activity. Keep up the good work of reporting questionable activity.
    Which false assumptions were those and where did I say nothing is being done? I think you need to read what I wrote again. From his posts, alaskanfarmer has contacted numerous agencies and only two have gotten back to him to say they would look into it.
    “I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” Physicist ― Richard Feynman


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    Quote Originally Posted by Patsfan54 View Post
    Which false assumptions were those and where did I say nothing is being done? I think you need to read what I wrote again. From his posts, alaskanfarmer has contacted numerous agencies and only two have gotten back to him to say they would look into it.
    "The fact that you've had to contact so many different alphabet arms of the government is the problem." Maybe he only needed to contact one agency? Maybe he didn't need to contact any? After viewing his post, I passed the information on to the Habitat Division within ADF&G and they started looking into it right away and began working with appropriate agencies, including law enforcement.

    "You've contact just about every government identity, except the Coast Guard, and they don't know what to do." From what I read, he contacted three departments. There is a false assumption here that these agencies don't know what to do.

    "The problem is there are too many government entities that could be responsible and not a single one that is." Without even knowing how many agencies are responsible, there is a false assumption that this is the problem.

    You are correct, you did not say that nothing was being done. But then, I didn't say that is what you said. I included that information for people reading the post so they would know action is being taken even if alaskanfarmer didn't receive a reply.

    Again, thanks to alaskanfarmer for reporting this incident.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aktally View Post
    "The fact that you've had to contact so many different alphabet arms of the government is the problem." Maybe he only needed to contact one agency? Maybe he didn't need to contact any? After viewing his post, I passed the information on to the Habitat Division within ADF&G and they started looking into it right away and began working with appropriate agencies, including law enforcement.

    "You've contact just about every government identity, except the Coast Guard, and they don't know what to do." From what I read, he contacted three departments. There is a false assumption here that these agencies don't know what to do.

    "The problem is there are too many government entities that could be responsible and not a single one that is." Without even knowing how many agencies are responsible, there is a false assumption that this is the problem.

    You are correct, you did not say that nothing was being done. But then, I didn't say that is what you said. I included that information for people reading the post so they would know action is being taken even if alaskanfarmer didn't receive a reply.

    Again, thanks to alaskanfarmer for reporting this incident.
    You're sure doing a good job at assuming things, you assume that my first post is 100% serious and in no way tounge in cheek. If you can't read the dripping sarcasm just take heart that it's there, no reason for you to assume otherwise. The numbers 37 and 64 should have been a clue.

    7, that's the number of agencies alaskanfarmer said he contacted, not 3. You don't need to assume so much if you use your ability to read. Nice chatting with you, enjoy the rest of your patrol.



    Alaskanfarmer,

    Sorry for highjacking your post.
    “I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” Physicist ― Richard Feynman


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    Hey guys. I recognize some folks in the thread may have had some minor disagreements, but I think we all are on the same page with respect to concern for fish and wildlife and their habitat, and that's the important thing. Also would like to thank everyone for their interest and comments.

    Latest update....heard back from US Army Corps today. They want to schedule a site visit next week or the following. They said they don't need my help, but if I was willing to take them out there, it would make it easier on them. So I'll walk them to the location. That they want to put eyes on it suggests to me they have checked for permits and there were none.

    So as of now, I've heard back from USACE, EPA, and USFWS which were the only federal agencies I contacted. Still no word from State DEC, DNR, ADFG, or Wildlife Troopers (forgot I contacted them too, as it states in their mission statement something about protecting habitat.) Also no word back from Borough code compliance people. All that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't doing anything, although I'd appreciate at least an acknowledgement that they will look into it or something along those lines. Will give them some more time.

    Thanks again guys

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    Post 34. "I passed the information on to the Habitat Division within ADF&G and they started looking into it right away and began working with appropriate agencies, including law enforcement. "

    This is an answer from high level Fish & Game!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMike View Post
    Post 34. "I passed the information on to the Habitat Division within ADF&G and they started looking into it right away and began working with appropriate agencies, including law enforcement. "

    This is an answer from high level Fish & Game!!
    It certainly had that ring to it, and inspired a glimmer of hope...but I'm still betting a beer that somewhere along the way a state employee told him he could go ahead and do it and no one would ever notice.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMike View Post
    Post 34. "I passed the information on to the Habitat Division within ADF&G and they started looking into it right away and began working with appropriate agencies, including law enforcement. "

    This is an answer from high level Fish & Game!!
    Not sure how I missed that comment. Thanks to aktally for passing along the info and you for pointing it out! I appreciate it

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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMike View Post
    This is an answer from high level Fish & Game!!
    Ahhhh, that explains the response to my post.
    “I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” Physicist ― Richard Feynman


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