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Thread: Kings on Kenai

  1. #1

    Default Kings on Kenai

    Sonar says over 3000 kings passed the sonar yesterday. Is fishing success reflective of this high number or is this number inflated possibly by another big push of reds up the river?

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    Member fishNphysician's Avatar
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    Reds......
    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
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    I did not fish for kings on the Kenai yesterday but I did on Sunday when the sonar said 2700. I am sure a fair number of those counts are sockeye but there were a lot of kings in the river on Sunday too when we fished. I did not see a lot of larger fish caught but quite a few smaller ones, less than 30 lbs. We had four to the boat with the largest at 32 lbs. but had more take downs than usual for sure.

  4. #4

    Default kenai kings

    Anybody that believes these counts, I have some ocean front property in Arizona for sale.I have fished down there every day on these so called big fish day. Haven't seen that many fish caught, fished 10 hours yesterday saw about 12 fish caught on a 3000 fish day, yeah sure. Talked to several guide friends of mine, we think possibly there might have been 3000 fish through the counter yesterday with the warmer water and the raise in the river due to the rains. But we think these fish where fish that had been through the counter several times all ready, these fish flush up and down the river several times before they go up for good. FISH AND GAME CLAIMS THAT THEY CAN TELL WHICH WAY THE FISH IS GOING THROUGH THE COUNTER. Maybe they can but lets say the fish that goes up is counted once and then returns downstream back through the counter, and then goes back through, how many times is this fish counted? There where very few fish caught below the Pasture yesterday but several darker fish caught upstream.

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    Talking Believing the counts. . . .

    Golly whiz. . . you guys (doc & big moosie) should be volunteering all this expertise to ADF&G. . .

    Our ignorant ADF&G biologists would no doubt appreciate you guys' unique ability to interpret the counts. . .

    Call them at 907-262-9368. . .


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    Sunday fished well.

    Monday fair for the DBM fleet.

    Tuesday was a struggle for most.

    Today was another tough day for most.

    Certainly nothing like the same time last year. Much better fishing then with king counts in the range of 600-800 per day. Definitely leaves folks wondering about the validity of the chinook sonar estimates the past few days.
    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
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    The KeenEye MD

  7. #7

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    I agree. I fished this time last year when the King counts were 800 and we did very well. There were similar numbers of reds coming through last year as there are this year on these same dates but the King counts seem to be much higher and the success rate seems to be much lower.

    Could this mean some sort of calibration problem with the King sonar like they had a few years back.

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    Thumbs down Fomenting discontent and distrust?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lunker_Lurker View Post
    Could this mean some sort of calibration problem with the King sonar like they had a few years back.
    Call the local office of ADF&G—907-262-9368—and let us know what you learn from the horse's mouth, boots-on-the-ground guys, and all that.

    What does all this speculation from uneducated, would-be biologists accomplish except to foment more discontent and distrust?

    If you want to know about possible calibration problems, why not ask the guys who do the calibrating?

    Keep us posted. . . .


  9. #9

    Default Kenai kings

    Marcus, for someone who says he dosen't even fish the Kenai, now your questioning everyone who does. I agree with the other posts on here. My boat caught 29 kings these same days last year 3 this year, on much bigger numbers.Most of the guides and people who know fish and fishing have said for years the counter should maybe be higher up the river. I will let you the expert Marcus figure out the reason, maybe your biologist buddies can help you.Everybody knows the reason F&G wants to keep the numbers up. Without the commercial boys they are out of a job.They have two red counters why not two king counters? Talked to several guide friends today, the average seems to be about one fish for seven fisherman. Maybe all of a sudden all of us have forgotten how to fish. And yes I catch and release and am proud of it.

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    Default Thanks for the help . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by big moosie View Post
    Marcus. . .Most of the guides and people who know fish and fishing have said for years the counter should maybe be higher up the river. . . maybe your biologist buddies can help you.Everybody knows the reason F&G wants to keep the numbers up. Without the commercial boys they are out of a job
    Thanks for the input, moosie, but I hardly qualify as an expert. It's my hope that you, the doc, and the guides—the real experts—will expose the fraud perpetrated on our fisheries by ADF&G by sharing your, ah,. . . "unique" perspective on the counts, the counters, and why they're doing what they're doing. . .

    Appreciate your help. . .

    Keep us posted. . .


  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by big moosie View Post
    Everybody knows the reason F&G wants to keep the numbers up. Without the commercial boys they are out of a job.They have two red counters why not two king counters?
    What a loaded statement, accusing professionals of unethical behavior without even knowing anything about the operations of the project. There are two sonar projects, one at river mile 19 operated by the division of commerical fisheries, and the other at river mile 8 operated by the division of sport fish. River mile 19 sonar is responsible for estimating sockeye salmon passage, river mile 8 sonar is responsible for estimating king salmon passage. Both projects have transducers on each bank and work hard every year to produce the best estimate possible. The Division of Sport Fish is funded by the sale of sport fishing licenses and federal taxes on fishing equipment and marine fuel. The commercial fishermen have no influence whatsoever on operations of that project.

    There are many other factors that can affect sport fishing success, and number of fish is only one of them. The fact that you talk to several guide friends is far from scientific. I'd find out what the creel survey has to say as a start. Read the king sonar reports and see what they have to say about uncertainties in the data and bias due to sockeye passage. Its an open book if you know how to read.

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    Default Gosh...

    Quote Originally Posted by fishNphysician View Post
    Sunday fished well.

    Monday fair for the DBM fleet.

    Tuesday was a struggle for most.

    Today was another tough day for most.
    You make it sound like a job!

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    This thread is not about an individual member. Keep your posts on topic, please.

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    Default Perspective

    Marcus, in science there are times when one should listen to on the ground observations. This may be one of them. First, ADF&G has recognized the problem of sockeye counting as chinook for years and has spent tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars to try and fix the problem. They are making progress but someproblems cannot be fixed with technical solutions.

    The issue I see is that the chinook counter is still experimental and yet is being used as a operational tool. That is bad science and bad management. The change in methodology over the years makes the comparative counts meaningless and the focus on management reduces the time available to do good research.

    I have suggested for years that this project be put back into a full research mode and the counts not used for management as fixed absolute numbers. In practice I think ADF&G does this but cannot admit it. For example, in the early Kenai chinook run they told the public again this year they had an issue with sockeye. However, the politics of the late run makes this admission more of a problem for them.

    The question about having two chinook counters is a good one. There are sites upstream ( near the sockeye counter) that could be developed. A second counter there would allow for the collection of some interesting data on when fish move, how many, and the certainity of the other counting methods including the harvest estimates.

    At this point I do not see that happening as the political climinate is not open to that approach.

    ADF&G biologist are not always right - but they deserve to be treated as scientist and held to standards of peer review and publication of results. That is missing in the chinook counting operation to a large degree.

  15. #15

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    Got an update from some friends who went out on a charter yesterday. 7 hookups and 4 fish in the boat on a 3/4 day charter (actually finished an hour early) Not a bad day at all. 51,41,41,19. They did say that they did a lot better than all the boats around them.

    Even with the large nubmers recently coming through it does not appear that they will get to the inriver projection of 57,000 by the end of the month, eliminating the possibility of an additional week.

    If my numbers are correct. Approx 30,000 in river count so far. Approx 9000 inriver harvest, leaves 21,000 escapement so far. Meets the minimum escapement goal of 17,800.

    Anybody seen any of the results of the creel survey for the late run. I have not seen a summary put out by ADF&G yet.

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    Thumbs down Speculation, observation, and defamation. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    Marcus, in science there are times when one should listen to on the ground observations. This may be one of them.
    You'll get no disagreement from me as long as such "observations" don't violate your qualification below. Far too often "on the ground" observations, speculations, and questions are used to accuse and abuse Alaska's resource managers, who in the best of times have enough to answer for. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    ADF&G biologist are not always right - but they deserve to be treated as scientist and held to standards of peer review and publication of results.


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    I have a great deal of confidence in people's opinions and comments who are on the water for hours upon hours and days upon days. One does not have to be trained or educated to know something intimately well.
    "Wine can of their wits the wise beguile, Make the sage frolic, and the serious smile." - Homer, Odyssey

  18. #18

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    I checked the counts on Sunday July 15th, to see what the 14th counts were. I specifically remember seeing 431 for Saturdays counts. I checked the site at 11am, which is usally the timeframe for the daily update. Then I go back to see Sunday's counts on Monday and sure enough the 431 was inflated to 1,037 for Saturday, then 1,282 for Sunday, even though fishing was very slow.

    I was told by an inside source at ADF&G that the sonar equipment was being changed out and calibrated that weekend.

    Now all of a sudden the counts are way up, yet fishing is very slow.

    Like a previous poster has said, did I forget how to fish? I don't think so. There just aren't that many kings in the river. It's been very sporadic this year, either really slow, or really good. The fishing has yet to be good all day long, just good for short spurts.

    A 2500-3000 fish day with 57 deg water temps and 30" visibility should make for red hot fishing, but it's not.

    Fishing was just as good when 500-800 were coming in at the beginning of the month. I'm a firm believer that the high counts are sockeye influenced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    ADF&G biologist are not always right - but they deserve to be treated as scientist and held to standards of peer review and publication of results.
    I believe that standard applies to ALL SCIENTISTS, not just those who work for ADF&G.

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    I talk with a couple of local's on the phone last night and they said the fishing was really good for Kings and Reds, wen & thu soooooo whats up ?

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