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Thread: Once on Paper...

  1. #1
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    Default Once on Paper...

    Ok, The Range help threads got me thinking & I almost though that someone was referencing me, when I had to sight in my Savage 110, I got it "Spot On" grouping @ 25 yards, & then put the paper out to 100 yards, & I was hitting low, then moved the reticle the amounts of clicks as indicated on the paper (1" squares) via the 1/4" marks on the scope, then I was shooting high, & had to move the clicks down, & finally got it "spot on", & was wondering if the MOA on the paper holes were accurate, & why then did I hit high, when I clicked the scope the amount of clicks as shown on the paper (eg. 1" would equal 4 clicks on the scope, as one click=1/4") So if I were low, say two sqaures, I would click the scope to 8 clicks to get the shot 2" higher on target. But when I'd do that, it would hit high & I would have to lower the clicks...odd to say the least...

  2. #2

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    The 1/4 clicks equal 1/4 inch at a hundred yards. If it is at 25 yards it will be different than at 100 yards. MOA 1 in at 100 yards, actually it is just a little more than 1 in, but I just call it and inch. Generally I donít go by the grids that are on paper targets. If I shoot it at 25 yards, I boar sight it and generally have it set to shoot about an inch low at 25. Then when you shoot at 100 you should be very close to dead on. Then it is fine tweaking from there.

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    Member Big Al's Avatar
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    If you are equipped with a steady rest for your rifle, take your shot at the range you want to be set at.

    Next move the cross hair to the first bullet hole. Shoot again. You are now sighted in!

  4. #4

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    Great advice Al. It don't know how much time, money, and barrel life (not that it matters as much as I get to just shoot these days) I've saved using that method. When I get a new rifle or mount a new scope on a bolt or single shot I've found the method of looking through the bore at a target about 25 yards out and centering the scope and target is more reliable than a bore sighter, and I'm not putting anything down the muzzle. I forget which now departed gun writer put me on to this years ago, but with velocities at 2900 fps and up, dead on at 25 yards is pretty much dead on at 100 yards. I've found this to be pretty accurate advice.

    I posted advice similar to yours on another forum and boy did it get shot at. Seems you must use a laser or magnetic bore sighter or have the box store "sight it in for you." Then you need to shoot 5 shot groups and adjust the crosshairs to the center of the group, shoot anther 5 shot group and adjust the crosshairs two shoot inches high at 100 yards. Then you must move the target back to 200 yards and sight to be zeroed at that range. After all this you must use your laser range finder to know which drop compensating horizontal or dot to use in the field. If you can't make it Rube Goldberg complicated it isn't real shooting or hunting. Simple is good when it works. Your advice, in my experience, works unless you have a bad scope or loose mounts. If that's the case no method will work.

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    You guys are right. Bore sighting means looking down the bore, not jamming some foreign object down the tube.

    Just a little further info here. Because of the mechanism of the adjustment turrets, a scopes adjustments aren't exact. one click isn't always 1/4". And I have found for the most precise adjustment, only adjust one axis at a time. Meaning adjust the elevation then shoot, adjust the windage then shoot. Also 1/4" at 100 is 1/16" at 25 yards. And you may remember the 1000 inch target of the M-16 sight in days. Given the sight height of the m-16 and the POA at 1000" range (25meters), gave a 300 yard zero for the combat rifle. Normally for a 2800-3000 fps rifle dead on in one hole at 25 yards, with a 1.5" scope height, is about2.5" high at 100 yards. If I couldn't shoot at 100,200,300 I'd do all my sight ins at 25 yards. Very precise.

    Of course this would take more shots. Not to negate your one shot sight in because I know it works, I use it to get int the middle of the target routinely.

    When I set up in the garage I have a dot on the freezer some 15' away and a pair of colored bar markers above that and look at the dot through the bore, and adjust the reticle to the cross bar 1.5" above the dot. That has not failed to get me on target at 100 yet in about 20 or so scope mount ups, since I've had that freezer. (moosebox)
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  6. #6

    Talking tapping

    Hi fellas: I have found thru the years, that a slight tapping by the scope turret, have eliminated any problems of the recticles not moving during sight in. I've had scopes, that the recticles didn't move like thay were supposed to, and then move later, probably from vibration, etc. Anyone else had this problem (probably was just the junk I was blessed with). I also found that if I sight in 1.65 " at 65-67 yards (that's all I can get here at home...makes for fast load testing to just load a few and step out the back door) that it puts me about 3 " high at 100 yds. Then make a trips to the range for some longer shooting.
    If you like getting kicked by a mule...then you'll "love" shooting my .458.

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    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    It's possible your scope as 1/2 moa turrets vs the more common 1/4 moa. My 2 1/2X leupold that premier reticles fit turrets to has 1/2 moa turrets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Al View Post
    If you are equipped with a steady rest for your rifle, take your shot at the range you want to be set at.

    Next move the cross hair to the first bullet hole. Shoot again. You are now sighted in!
    thats how i do it... works great.
    Josh
    Back in Afghanistan, I hope for the last time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maydog View Post
    Hi fellas: I have found thru the years, that a slight tapping by the scope turret, have eliminated any problems of the recticles not moving during sight in. I've had scopes, that the recticles didn't move like thay were supposed to, and then move later, probably from vibration, etc. Anyone else had this problem (probably was just the junk I was blessed with). I also found that if I sight in 1.65 " at 65-67 yards (that's all I can get here at home...makes for fast load testing to just load a few and step out the back door) that it puts me about 3 " high at 100 yds. Then make a trips to the range for some longer shooting.

    I noticed that when i was a kid using crap scopes, i learned to go past where you want to go with your clicks. If you want to adjust up 4 clicks, go 8 clicks (or more but keep count) then back it back down 4. For me this has worked pretty well... not perfect but not bad.
    Josh
    Back in Afghanistan, I hope for the last time.

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    Default Big difference...

    I remember there was a big difference in shot placement too, when I used 3x compared to 9x on the scope as well, when I used 9x, I found my shots were closer to the spot than when I used 3x...So I sighted in my rifle @ 9x...

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    Default Big difference...

    I remember there was a big difference in shot placement too, when I used 3x compared to 9x on the scope as well, when I used 9x, I found my shots were closer to the spot than when I used 3x...So I sighted in my rifle @ 9x...this was the 100 yard tweaking, on the 25 yd. bore site I used 3x of course...

  12. #12
    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    I'd be concerned about hunting with a scope that changes point of impact with change in power setting. I'd also shoot multiple groups at 100 yds once you set your zero, to confirm that it isn't wandering. Some scopes get the interals shooken loose, and from what you'd said, I'd be concerned you have a scope problem.

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    Member Big Al's Avatar
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    The problems you folks describe with scopes is vary common with Leupold scopes they have vary poor flat spring to move the erection tube.

    For this reason a fellow name of Cecile Tucker puts a coil spring and housing on the tube for the benchrest crowd. I have one on my 36X Leu.

    If you will look at the Night force scopes you will see the same external housing for the coil spring. IF you have this problem with a scope return it to the manufacturer and tell them of the problem.

    By the way, in the cheaper scopes Sightron has taken care of the problem in a much better manor.

    Please don't flame me for this on the cheaper stuff and your holy grail Leupold. I have these problems just like a lot of other shooters, I just won't put up with it any longer.

  14. #14
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    For the folks that want to understand the trouble with your internal adjustable scope, can come from, read this link.

    http://sightron.com/index.php?action..._id=1044399417

  15. #15

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    First, Big Al I feel the same as you about Leupold. They are not the only game in town. Very good scopes with tremendous warranty service that you pay extra for up front. But the sun doesn't rise or set on them.

    I recently up graded and changed a bunch of scopes around to get the most potential out of my rifles. I purchased a Sightron and it was the only one where the first time I looked through it I just said WOW! Time will tell if this was a good purchase, but for now I like it a lot better that the Leupolds I bought. For the money I like the Elite 4200 and Nikon Monarch UCC, but the number of Nikon refurbs on the market sort of scares me. I've found Burris scopes to be pretty good for the money.

    Now, back to sighting in. A couple of years ago I was watching one of the outdoor programs and the host, I believe it was Bert Jones, was trying to sight in his new rifle. I can't remember if he was sitting or prone, but the barrel was resting on a log or branch. He was having the darndest time getting sighted in. When the time came for the shot, there was a lot of shooting but no connecting. Again the barrel was resting on a log. I remember just yelling at the TV, "Your barrel's on a log you idjit. Get your hat under the fore arm and rest the stock on the log. What a maroon."

    A few days ago I ran across this advice from Gale McMillan.


    Is it your bag technique? I am assuming that you have a good solid pedestal and good rabbit ear bags. You will probably have better luck using a fore end stop . You want to pound the rifle down into the bags and position the rear bag so that the crosshair is within a 1/4 inch of the point you want to hit. Push the rifle up to the stop and put about 8 ounces of pressure with your shoulder. Now with the hand that holds the pistol grip use your thumb and put 8 ounces of down pressure on the stock at the pistol grip. I don't hold the pistol grip except for the thumb and have the rest of the hand lying along side the grip with only the trigger finger and thumb touching the gun.

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    Member Big Al's Avatar
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    Bench techniques at the bench are vary individual to the rifle. Holding the gun, shooting free recoil, there are many ways to shoot. Using a forend stop, you will not find vary many shooters using one. I have a number of them for several rests, brand new, never used. The reason is that they have a tendency to push the front rest out of position, when you push the rifle forward after the shot.

    What worked for Gale will not work for everybody else. This is why you have to develop what works for you.

    Depending on the rifle, I don't look through the scope at the shot, I watch the flags. My rifle is already set-up for the shot, I have my thumb at the back of the trigger guard and my finger (index) in the bottom of the trigger guard, slowly tapping to touch the trigger (Jewell @ 2oz) this works for bench guns but does not work for anything else.

    One thing that works for all types is to use your off hand after the shot to grasp the underside of the stock to lift the bolt, it helps to keep your position on the bags for the next shot.

    Another thing I do is shoot as fast as I can for the group, in the same condition. I don't want a shift to catch me that makes me chance a shot in a different condition.

    All of the above is just my two cents and I can put money on the fact that none or some of the above may or may not work for anybody else.

    As to the Sightron scopes they have just been copied for the internal adjustment by MARCH Scopes available through Kelbly's Inc, at 2200.00 per pop. That is a 40X target scope.

    I do not care what others do when it comes to rifle scopes, I don't own stock in any of these companies. When someone asks my openion I tell them my first choise is Schmit&Bender. Not everybody has the price for one of these scopes, then I recommend the Sightron. I have a bunch of Leupolds and I know a better scope than them of less money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer55 View Post
    I posted advice similar to yours on another forum and boy did it get shot at. Seems you must use a laser or magnetic bore sighter or have the box store "sight it in for you." Then you need to shoot 5 shot groups and adjust the crosshairs to the center of the group, shoot anther 5 shot group and adjust the crosshairs two shoot inches high at 100 yards. Then you must move the target back to 200 yards and sight to be zeroed at that range. After all this you must use your laser range finder to know which drop compensating horizontal or dot to use in the field. If you can't make it Rube Goldberg complicated it isn't real shooting or hunting.
    Whole heartedly agree. I had some self proclaimed expert aquaintances expounding on the virtues of the laser boresighter and with the precision offered by them they did not need to shoot any sight in shots before we went hunting!! We went only once. Gets back to Paul's comment on another post about loaner rifles. If they require a loaner don't hunt or shoot with them.

  18. #18

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    I guess I was a lot too long winded in my last post to make my point, which was that we need to develop a reliable, repeatable procedure at the bench so that we can know that it is the equipment not the shooter when sighting a scope or developing a load. One example was of what I'd seen some one do wrong, and the other was an example of one way to do it with consistency. I didn't mean to imply that McMillan's method was the way to do it. I thought the pertinent part was the repeatability of his method and getting the stock firmly supported in the bags. I think it is human nature to blame the equipment when in many cases the gun is more capable than the shooter.

  19. #19

    Default Big Al & Leupold Scopes

    I have been suspicious of my Leupold 2-7 VX1. Worked perfectly on my .270 for 2 years. I put it on my .35 Gibbs and sighted in, worked up loads using 5-shot strings. The first 20 shots were fine - groups at about 2 inches high and then suddenly my 21st shot was 4 inches low and so was the whole group. Another group was the same. I adjusted her back up and all has been fine since. Could the weak spring be the culprit?

    Incidentally I see that simmonds has a scope that does away with the springs and rifle magazine rated it very highly......for what that is worth, particularly given the price.

    Thoughts? anyone using Simmonds. I need 1 more scope in the 1-6 range that can take the abuse!

    Cheers

  20. #20
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    http://astro.isi.edu/reference/flanders.html

    All I can hope to do is provide a little eduction on the subject. Now that I got that off of my chest, I bought four of the 3X9 Simmons scopes at one time for different rifles that were gift rifles/ trading stock for relatives. These were bought in 1999. Installed on two Ruger Mini 14's, one on a Mauser 98, and the other on a Savage M99 in .250/3000. All of these rifles are hunted and hunted hard here and in Arizona, without one complaint to me in all this time. And believe me I would be the first to hear if they had a problem.

    I just have to remind anyone that reads this, "You pays your money and takes your chance".

    Flyer55: I'm with you on your post, It just needs to be remembered that each rifle might take a different setup to work it's best. Some rifles have to be held "hard", some soft, and some not at all to get the best from them. Can you imagine that anyone could shoot their Remington 700 .300 RUM free recoil?

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