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Thread: Ballot Measure 1 / Alaska Salmon Habitat Initiative

  1. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by 68 Bronco View Post
    'Patsfan54'-

    "6. Set realistic goals. There are no doubt trouble anadromous waterways throughout the state, focus on the troubles areas...

    ........... Let the conversation towards what is next begin....."


    Here's a challenge for you, rather than pass out redundant and elementary tips at the keyboard:

    Wasilla Cr. headwaters.

    There is a full throated State Plan (Mat Su Moose Range Plan, 1985) for the area with DNR, F&G, and Forestry roles all delineated. The Plan has been completely ineffective; habitat destroyed, ongoing right under our noses. You can see much of the problem in 1/2 of your day. Spring, summer and fall are the best times to view the impacts and winter is a good time for agency conferences. It's wet until well after spawning occurs, and you will need to wear your waders or XtraTuffs at a minimum.
    It is an ideal 'realistic goal' with which one may earn the privilege to advise.

    I've provided an overview of the situation in this forum (as you know).
    Feel free to request extensive photo documentation with geo markers. I'll be happy to provide you with initiated high level agency contacts.

    Get back to us when you are successful - i.e. known fish habitat protected per the Plan and the laws.
    When you have accomplished that, I can point to other easily accessed 'trouble areas'.

    I've logged many, many years of field time, meetings, writing, etc. and would really like to see you and yours be successful where many of us have failed.

    That is "..what is next.." in my diminutive timeline. I'm tired of the banter and lack of progress in the watersheds and wish to pass on the tasks to a new generation.
    Go back and read what I last wrote a few more times. Maybe you should look at the vote tally again a few more times while you are at it. You are still not listening, nothing will change if you do not listen to those you disagree with and you cannot blame anyone for that other than yourself. Listen to those you disagree with, or don't, it's your choice. Stop blaming me and others for your choices.
    "Now you know, and knowing is half the battle." - G.I. Joe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patsfan54 View Post
    Go back and read what I last wrote a few more times. Maybe you should look at the vote tally again a few more times while you are at it. You are still not listening, nothing will change if you do not listen to those you disagree with and you cannot blame anyone for that other than yourself. Listen to those you disagree with, or don't, it's your choice. Stop blaming me and others for your choices.
    What a condescending post. I asked you how you would change the existing regulations since the opposition claimed they want to protect salmon habitat. You refused to answer until the election was over. Well it is time to answer how riparian areas will be protected, how cumulative impacts in a watershed be evaluated, what are your suggestions are for competing jurisdictions, or how mitigation for impacts look? I asked weeks ago and I am listening for your answer

    If you wait for a troubled area to happen it is too late. One should be proactive not reactive.

    I am am sure the major opposition will not engage here in the Legislative branch with positive suggestions.

    Last point. I listened to the ads and talking points. Most were flat out lies. How can one enter into reasonable conversation when they have been lied too numerous times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    What a condescending post. I asked you how you would change the existing regulations since the opposition claimed they want to protect salmon habitat. You refused to answer until the election was over. Well it is time to answer how riparian areas will be protected, how cumulative impacts in a watershed be evaluated, what are your suggestions are for competing jurisdictions, or how mitigation for impacts look? I asked weeks ago and I am listening for your answer

    If you wait for a troubled area to happen it is too late. One should be proactive not reactive.

    I am am sure the major opposition will not engage here in the Legislative branch with positive suggestions.

    Last point. I listened to the ads and talking points. Most were flat out lies. How can one enter into reasonable conversation when they have been lied too numerous times.
    Condescending is telling somebody who is trying to help that they don't know what they are talking about and then demanding that they should listen to you instead.

    You are still not listening. You should be. If you do not listen now you will not listen ever. Listen. Now.

    The vote was 63% No and 37% Yes, that is an overwhelming statement...something that should make the yes crowd take notice and reassess what they are doing. Nerka and Bronco, you are not in a position to demand anything, you need to listen. Go back through this thread read what those you disagree with said and then come back with reasonable ideas.

    Stop demanding that others listen to you. Listen, hear, pay attention, contribute, stop doing what you are doing because it is very clearly not working.

    Listen to those you disagree with.
    "Now you know, and knowing is half the battle." - G.I. Joe

  4. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patsfan54 View Post
    Condescending is telling somebody who is trying to help that they don't know what they are talking about and then demanding that they should listen to you instead.

    You are still not listening. You should be. If you do not listen now you will not listen ever. Listen. Now.

    The vote was 63% No and 37% Yes, that is an overwhelming statement...something that should make the yes crowd take notice and reassess what they are doing. Nerka and Bronco, you are not in a position to demand anything, you need to listen. Go back through this thread read what those you disagree with said and then come back with reasonable ideas.

    Stop demanding that others listen to you. Listen, hear, pay attention, contribute, stop doing what you are doing because it is very clearly not working.

    Listen to those you disagree with.
    Another bs post. First are you now claiming that the 67 % do not support salmon habitat law revisions. They claimed they do and their no vote was driven by a too complicated measure and lack of public process. What is it? They agree change is needed or they want status quo. If status quo then they lied.

    Why should I and others have to guess what you want in regulation? You killed the suggestions one group put forward. Now is the time for you to take a risk. It is easy to sit back and take shots at others ideas. Grow a pair and put your ideas out for review. Do not put it on us to figure out what you would do. If you read the post on this thread there is not one concrete idea on effective changes to the regulations.

    Living in in a pro development red state I also assumed that salmon will lose in the long run. Humans tend to crap in their habitat just like other animals.

    Condesending is exactly what you did. You said we were wrong and listen to me. Not only that you posted your simplistic listen comment numerous times. You assumed no one paid attention. Not once did you think you could be wrong. That was just being arrogant in addition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    Another bs post. First are you now claiming that the 67 % do not support salmon habitat law revisions. They claimed they do and their no vote was driven by a too complicated measure and lack of public process. What is it? They agree change is needed or they want status quo. If status quo then they lied.

    Why should I and others have to guess what you want in regulation? You killed the suggestions one group put forward. Now is the time for you to take a risk. It is easy to sit back and take shots at others ideas. Grow a pair and put your ideas out for review. Do not put it on us to figure out what you would do. If you read the post on this thread there is not one concrete idea on effective changes to the regulations.

    Living in in a pro development red state I also assumed that salmon will lose in the long run. Humans tend to crap in their habitat just like other animals.

    Condesending is exactly what you did. You said we were wrong and listen to me. Not only that you posted your simplistic listen comment numerous times. You assumed no one paid attention. Not once did you think you could be wrong. That was just being arrogant in addition.

    Still.

    Not.

    Listening.

    Your post is full of misinformation. To start, nowhere did I claim "that the 67 % do not support salmon habitat law revisions" NOWHERE.

    Start listening, it will help your cause. Or keep doing what you're doing and keep hurting it further, your choice and yours alone.

    Maybe you should listen to those you disagree with, it may be simple but it's true. Or just keep insulting me, whatever makes you feel good.

    Listen to those you disagree with.
    "Now you know, and knowing is half the battle." - G.I. Joe

  6. #506
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patsfan54 View Post
    Still.

    Not.

    Listening.

    Your post is full of misinformation. To start, nowhere did I claim "that the 67 % do not support salmon habitat law revisions" NOWHERE.

    Start listening, it will help your cause. Or keep doing what you're doing and keep hurting it further, your choice and yours alone.

    Maybe you should listen to those you disagree with, it may be simple but it's true. Or just keep insulting me, whatever makes you feel good.

    Listen to those you disagree with.
    You got nothing left but to attempt to troll people into telling you where you can go and what you can do with yourself when you get there, eh? Didn't you learn anything when your dad had to pull the car over and beat your ass for acting this way in the back seat?
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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    [QUOTE=Patsfan54;1651028]Still.

    Not.

    Listening.

    Your post is full of misinformation. To start, nowhere did I claim "that the 67 % do not support salmon habitat law revisions" NOWHERE.

    Start listening, it will help your cause. Or keep doing what you're doing and keep hurting it further, your choice and yours alone.

    Maybe you should listen to those you disagree with, it may be simple but it's true. Or just keep insulting me, whatever makes you feel good.

    Listen to those you disagree

    You implied that the 63% vote was a message to the losing end. But enough of this. You keep trying to divert the discussion from the question which is again “what would you suggest”. For the record neither I nor bronco demanded anything. We have no power and I doubt you do either. What we do have is years of on ground experience trying to protect salmon habitat. What have you done? You will not even try to engage in a conversation about what you would do. Neither I nor Bronco have time for this bs. We will continue to work toward habitat protection and die knowing we tried and had some success. What will be your legacy? History will repeat and show that Alaskans are just like everyone else. Maybe you should listen to the voice of history instead of giving lectures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    You got nothing left but to attempt to troll people into telling you where you can go and what you can do with yourself when you get there, eh? Didn't you learn anything when your dad had to pull the car over and beat your ass for acting this way in the back seat?
    Thank you for you contribution.
    "Now you know, and knowing is half the battle." - G.I. Joe

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    [QUOTE=Nerka;1651032]
    Quote Originally Posted by Patsfan54 View Post
    Still.

    Not.

    Listening.

    Your post is full of misinformation. To start, nowhere did I claim "that the 67 % do not support salmon habitat law revisions" NOWHERE.

    Start listening, it will help your cause. Or keep doing what you're doing and keep hurting it further, your choice and yours alone.

    Maybe you should listen to those you disagree with, it may be simple but it's true. Or just keep insulting me, whatever makes you feel good.

    Listen to those you disagree

    You implied that the 63% vote was a message to the losing end. But enough of this. You keep trying to divert the discussion from the question which is again “what would you suggest”. For the record neither I nor bronco demanded anything. We have no power and I doubt you do either. What we do have is years of on ground experience trying to protect salmon habitat. What have you done? You will not even try to engage in a conversation about what you would do. Neither I nor Bronco have time for this bs. We will continue to work toward habitat protection and die knowing we tried and had some success. What will be your legacy? History will repeat and show that Alaskans are just like everyone else. Maybe you should listen to the voice of history instead of giving lectures.
    You keep insulting me.

    You refuse to listen. Accept that other people have opinions. Listen to those you disagree with.

    LISTEN.

    Or hate, keep hating those you disagree with
    "Now you know, and knowing is half the battle." - G.I. Joe

  10. #510
    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patsfan54 View Post
    Thank you for you contribution.
    Better if you were to actually make a contribution than to offer insincere thanks for same.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It

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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    Better if you were to actually make a contribution than to offer insincere thanks for same.
    Thanks for your opinion.
    "Now you know, and knowing is half the battle." - G.I. Joe

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    "Listen. Listen to the global extraction conglomerates who bought our votes on the cheap because they want to strip-mine through salmon habitat, destroying it, and an important Alaskan way of life, utterly, forever. Shh, shhhhh now....just listen..."....
    "– Gas boats are bad enough, autos are an invention of the devil, and airplanes are worse." ~Allen Hasselborg

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    I bet Exxon is shaking their heads on this one. They spent $1,000,000,000 in the Summer of ‘89 “cleaning” PWS, when come to find out they could’ve spent just $11,000,000 on a glitzy ad campaign to convince the majority of Alaskans that Oil Spills are good for the environment...and the jobs, think of the jobs!!!
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.” ― H.S.T.
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  14. #514
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    [QUOTE=Patsfan54;1651034]
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post

    You keep insulting me.

    You refuse to listen. Accept that other people have opinions. Listen to those you disagree with.

    LISTEN.

    Or hate, keep hating those you disagree with
    Oh, we listened.
    Sounded like a whole bunch of gullibility and whorehouse logic from y’all.
    Still does.
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.” ― H.S.T.
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  15. #515
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    I think one concrete idea that I have heard by both sides in this discussion here is proper enforcement of current law.
    Now I'm not a lawyer, nor a judge, and certainly not an employee or officer of ADF&G. So I'm not a hundred percent certain on how we go about giving those people what they need to enforce current habitat laws.
    Is it a lack of funding? Do the laws need to be tweaked to give them the ability to prosecute even the small offenders?
    I'm no expert so I don't know exactly what we need to do to get there but I think that would be a big step in the right direction.
    If we would start Prosecuting people for damage done under current law then we would have a better idea of what is actually going on out there and what we need to do to protect the habitat further.
    but if we cannot even prosecute people who are violating the current law as it's written how can we expect to enforce any new laws that are written?

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  16. #516
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    It also sounds to me like there's a few members on the yes side on this form whose only thoughts are support this or they resort to name-calling.
    They don't have anything constructive to add even after the ballot measure lost still more name-calling.
    Then there's the ones who only came here to add rep and say Yes support this.
    Nerka and Bronco68 are the only two people on the yes side who really added much real information and data to the yes side of this discussion and I do thank them for that.
    The others were pretty much just resorting to name-calling those who opposed it which really just shows another reason why alaskans voted no. Why should I accept name-calling and bullying tactics simply because I do not support the language of a ballot measure?
    People tried to tell me that I don't give a crap about salmon just because I decided a no vote was my decision!
    Yet nothing could be further from the truth.
    I don't support Ballot Box biology and I did not like the way this ballot measure was worded.
    Even some on the yes side of this have agreed that it wasn't worded properly and that Ballot Box biology is not a great way to manage fish and game in Alaska.
    What would be a nice first step in furthering the discussion on salmon habitat protection is to quit the name-calling and belittling of people on the other side(from both sides) and have some real intelligent discussion.
    But I'm sure I'll just hear some more name-calling thrown out there even to me just for saying this!


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  17. #517

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    Patsfan54 is now on my ignore list due to a disrespectful PM received.
    "Punish the monkey - let the organ grinder go" - Mark Knopfler

  18. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by kasilofchrisn View Post
    It also sounds to me like there's a few members on the yes side on this form whose only thoughts are support this or they resort to name-calling.
    They don't have anything constructive to add even after the ballot measure lost still more name-calling.
    Like alluding to folks fudging on drug tests? That kind of "name calling"?



    If you don't like "name calling" and insults, then perhaps take a good look in the mirror.

    As to the rest of your blather, well, it's blather....
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.” ― H.S.T.
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  19. #519
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    Quote Originally Posted by 68 Bronco View Post
    Patsfan54 is now on my ignore list due to a disrespectful PM received.
    Shocker. Not.....
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.” ― H.S.T.
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  20. #520
    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskaHippie View Post
    Like alluding to folks fudging on drug tests? That kind of "name calling"?



    If you don't like "name calling" and insults, then perhaps take a good look in the mirror.

    As to the rest of your blather, well, it's blather....
    See there you go again one name calling and nothing of merit added to the discussion.
    I've at least added some constructive thought and opinions to this discussion.
    And I've stated my opinion and reasons why I voted no.
    The only thing you can say you've added to this discussion is vote yes or you're an idiot. But you see that Viewpoint doesn't get us anywhere.
    Especially since your side lost by a landslide.
    If you don't want to add anything constructive to this discussion maybe you should just avoid posting?



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