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Thread: Willow Lake crash

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    Default Willow Lake crash

    Sad to see what happened on Willow lake with the Beaver. Any one have any thoughts on this crash? Looks like another case of overloading to me.

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    While granting that a couple of attempts were made before liftoff, since it did get off.....even if overloaded was there possibly some supervening event that pushed it into the "can't fly" zone rather than "just" a generic overload? Possibly some overload plus a lot of out-of-balance/maybe-out-of-CG?

    (I know nothing about Beavers FWIW).
    Back in AK

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    The word is that he had a load of concrete blocks, If that is the case he could have had part of his load move like the guy leaving merrill feild a few years ago and his load shifted and it slamed in to a building.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Bend View Post
    The word is that he had a load of concrete blocks, If that is the case he could have had part of his load move like the guy leaving merrill feild a few years ago and his load shifted and it slamed in to a building.
    The guy at Merrill was also 650 lbs over weight. I'm not sure shifting weight had anything to do with it. Anyhow, if he was flying concrete blocks, it doesn't take many to get yourself in trouble. They take up relatively little space for their weight. Two adults and a child (400#), fuel (300#), leaves 1300# for cargo. That is 35 concrete blocks, less than half a pallet. Stacked neatly that is only a stack 48"x48x16" high. Stacked incorrectly, like near the rear door, and you have another issue of CoG. It's a sad story, but I am very glad the mother and child escaped from this one.
    Bunny Boots and Bearcats: Utility Sled Mayhem

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    You can fly with a bigger percentage over weight than having your CoG off by a little .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Bend View Post
    You can fly with a bigger percentage over weight than having your CoG off by a little .
    My guess is both. Makes you wonder about what a person is thinking. Did some one say " Boy it would be nice to get everything in one shot " Was it a miss calculation? I know one thing, after a couple of attempts trying to get off the water I would have been saying I want off the plane.

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    It was a very Hot day, the dark vegetation and ground would have provided a warmer and thinner air, then the cooler thicker air on the lake surface. Ground effect and relatively heavy air density allowed for lift off, thinner warmer less dense air would not support wing lift after leaving the cooler lake environment. While this may or may not have been the dominate factor..........it was likely a contributing factor. Sadly

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    My guess is both. Makes you wonder about what a person is thinking. Did some one say " Boy it would be nice to get everything in one shot " Was it a miss calculation? I know one thing, after a couple of attempts trying to get off the water I would have been saying I want off the plane.

    D**n skippy. I tend not to get terribly wound up about load, much more concerned about loading, but two attempts regardless of cause? I'd be getting off.
    Back in AK

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    For a good story about take off weight go to Patron Two web site and then go to the Turtle . This took place in 1946 a navy P2V-1 set out to set a non stop non refueling record. The plane took off 13 tons over its max take off weight. A twin engine plane took off at 85,575 pounds . The most ever lifted by twin engines still to this day. It is a long read but well worth it. This is a example that load is less a factor than loading.

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    We all know planes will fly a little (or sometimes a lot) overweight but there are limits to what they'll do. The limits get expanded a bit when you can attach a few JATO bottles like the Turtle you mentioned. Most of us don't have that option.
    Louis Knapp

  11. #11

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    I mention that because I felt that people in the flying community would enjoy reading the planning and work that went into that flight. Not in any way was it about the Beaver that went down in Willow .Some pilots have a bad habit of making bad decision when it comes flying.


    Quote Originally Posted by Louis View Post
    We all know planes will fly a little (or sometimes a lot) overweight but there are limits to what they'll do. The limits get expanded a bit when you can attach a few JATO bottles like the Turtle you mentioned. Most of us don't have that option.

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    Sorry, I did mean to mention that I enjoyed the story and upon rereading my reply it looks a little more snarky than I like to see.

    I do like reading about old Navy aviation days. My Father flew flying boats (PBY's and PBM's) during WWII and it was amazing the length of missions they could fly. They had to be pretty creative before the days of midair refueling. The Navy hung on to recip engines for a long time.
    Louis Knapp

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    Thanks, I flew in the P2V-7 in the early 60es . We have e VP-2 reunion every 2 years at a different city in 2010 we were in Pensacola and got a chance to go inside of the turtle . It was in rough shape sitting outside . After the reunion our group raised over $50,000.00 to have the plane restore and it was put inside for display. It was very rewarding to be part of restoring part of history. The best part of the story was when they were making radio contact coming into the California cost.

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    please forward your theories to the NTSB!
    Tim

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Bend View Post
    Thanks, I flew in the P2V-7 in the early 60es . We have e VP-2 reunion every 2 years at a different city in 2010 we were in Pensacola and got a chance to go inside of the turtle . It was in rough shape sitting outside . After the reunion our group raised over $50,000.00 to have the plane restore and it was put inside for display. It was very rewarding to be part of restoring part of history. The best part of the story was when they were making radio contact coming into the California cost.
    That is super cool!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mit View Post
    please forward your theories to the NTSB!
    I see the head of the Alaska NTSB is now on the Iditarod board... That should help with the backlog of NTSB investigations...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mit View Post
    please forward your theories to the NTSB!
    I think the goal here is to educate new pilots and future pilots who are part of this forum.

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    All I know of the Willow crash is based upon news articles.
    Most "News" articles have been pretty inaccurate or misleading over the past couple hundred years.
    So I will wait a bit longer. Not that I have a huge amount of trust in NTSB report conclusions, but at least they usually have some interesting facts to digest.

    According to the NTSB report, the plane was also loaded with the passenger's cargo.

    "The pilot loaded the passenger's cargo, which according to a statement provided by the passenger, consisted of multiple bags of masonry mortar, three totes full of food and stores, two propane tanks, and miscellaneous baggage and supplies," investigators learned from witnesses.
    No mention of concrete blocks here, so.... who knows, maybe,,,, maybe not. Bags of mortar weigh a LOT, but how many and how big??? 5 pounds, 50, or 100lbs... ???

    And were there really multiple take-off attempts or was he roughing up glassy water by zooming back and forth like many of us do on glassy water, heavy load days???

    And once he was airborne, just how far did he go before he smacked the trees??? Some initial reports on TV said half a mile, others said he crashed immediately. So which is it?????

    Since I have not seen any of the supposedly multiple videos, I will have to wait.
    It could be:
    1. Load shift after take-off or during take-off,
    2. bad cg from the start
    3. overloaded
    4. Improper flap retraction on climb-out or at low speed.
    5. Loss or lack of power from another cause ( mechanical or fuel)
    6. All sorts of other stuff....
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