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Thread: Commercial Boats? / Beach Parking?

  1. #1
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    Default Commercial Boats? / Beach Parking?

    Looking to dip on the Kenai on Wed but wondering if the commercial boats will be going out then. I don't want to make the trip down if it numbers will be limited by them.

    Are people driving out on the beach on the South side?

  2. #2
    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Default

    The commercial boats aren't scheduled for Wednesday, but there's no way to tell for sure if there will be an emergency opener. I'm potentially planning on being there Wednesday as well, as long as my friend can go along. Commercial opening or not, you can only get fish if your net is in the water! Our dillema at this point is whether to dip from shore or a boat.

  3. #3
    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Default Saturday 7/21 Report

    Just returned from three days of dipnetting on the lower Kenai. Here are the results:

    7/19- Thursday. Fished the evening tide, caught one red.

    Day 2- Friday. Fished the morning tide and caught one red. Fished the evening tide and caught nine reds and one pink.

    Day 3- Saturday. Fished the morning tide and caught seven reds. Fished the evening and caught 21 reds. Finished filleting and icing the fish at 1am (I was by myself).

    Day 4- Sunday. Drove home and collapsed in exhaustion. But we're stocked up on fish now.

    Observations- I'm no expert on dipnetting (only done it for three years, from the shore). I don't think the commercial guys really make a difference. They were fishing Saturday evening (I know, because I drove over to the bluff and glassed- they were out there with nets and such, with several heavy-laden boats coming back). It was my best day fishing and the river seemed alive with reds. The beach guys were doing great, as were the boats. I was fishing below the bridge and we did well there too.

    Lesson Learned: If you're dipping at the bridge, go over to the bluffs and glass the mouth a couple of hours before the high tide. Look for jumpers and people catching fish. If it's good, it will take them about an hour or so to get to the bridge. At least, that's what happened this time.

    If I were interested in going again (I would be happy to help someone do it next weekend, but we don't need more fish), I would just go for it. Should be pretty good (unless it peaks this week- which is a good possibility). If anyone needs a hand next weekend, let me know and I'd be happy to assist.

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  4. #4

    Default Fishery Windows

    Good to hear folks are filling their freezers. That push of fish into the Kenai on Friday and Saturday coincided with the 36-hour commercial fishery closure window that was in place on the Kenai beaches from Thursday 11 pm until Saturday at 11 am. It usually takes a day or so after a fishery for the fish to reload the beaches and start moving into the river in numbers. A Friday-Saturday commercial fishery window was built into the management plan to provide predictable weekend opportunity for the personal use and sport fishery. According to the management plan there should be another 24 hour closure window on Tuesday or Wednesday. Fish on!

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    I could be entirely wrong, but I believe the only required window is a 36 hour period, sometime during the week, during which the DRIFT gillnet fleet is not allowed to fish. The past 2 weeks they have done this from the time they closed on Thursday night through Saturday morning. However, this past weekend, the DID open the SET gillnet commercial fishermen on Friday who fish within 1/2 mile of the mean high tide mark, meaning, the setnetters who's nets are anchored in, and they basically pick their nets from skiffs. I think that the 36 hour window does not apply to them, and from what I can tell, since they have hit the lower escapement goal on the Kasilof, they let the setnetters south of the kasilof fish to keep too many more fish from entering the river, but still let the Kenai fish get by that are heading north.

  6. #6

    Default

    All the management plans and strategies are found in the following link. Scroll down to the section labeled: UCI Fisheries Management Plans and Strategies. The prescribed or available eo time applies to the set net fishery, not the drift fishery, although there are some restrictions that do apply to the drift fleet. Rather than going through all the plans, people can read them for themselves.

    http://www.cf.adfg.state.ak.us/region2/ucihome.php

  7. #7
    Member AK NIMROD's Avatar
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    friends went 7-18 in a boat got 62 in 3 hrs
    they went again 7-19 4 fish (one king)
    i went with them 7-20- took hour to launch boat and fished 3-4 hrs got 28
    i went again with them yesterday early 7am started out hot then died ended up with 18 in 4 hrs....one small king .there was an opener. last drift was from bridge to closed line only 2 fish and that was in last 1/4 mile.
    RETIRED U.S.A.F. CAPT.; LIFETIME MEMBER NRA; LIFETIME MEMBER ALASKA BOWHUNTER ASSOC.
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  8. #8

    Default Kenai South shore

    Went Sunday afternoon and caught 18 reds in an hour and a half. Could have filled my quota I'm sure if I could have stayed longer, but had to leave for work. I was doing the "walk the dog" method, It was pretty crowded, but suprisingly pretty good going with most people using their heads and being very courteous vs. the aggresive/competitive meat fisher only types. Only came up empty twice on the 50 yd. march along the beach. It was a ball. Good thing my wife was there to run the fish up to the cooler. Try to keep your net a different distance from shore than the guys just ahead of you. Don't have to necessarily be way out there, but that seemed to be a slight advantage. Tight nets !!!
    EMO

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    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    I went last Thursday, against my better judgement to go on a commercial day. The sonar looks great for that day, but you have to realize there is a time lag from the mouth to the sonar, so I'd wager most of those fish were from Wednesday night, and Thursday morning when you coudln't fish. I fished for about 5 hours, caught one pink, one red and 4 flounder.

    I'm debating a banzai run after work on Wednesday, need to fill the freezer, but don't want to wear myself out as I plan to fish PWS this weekend.

    I think I've been spoiled as I've nailed the timing so many times in the past years, getting 30-60 fish in 3 hours that it's a real bummer not hitting the peak. But, you gotta put your time in, and if you're there when the fish are, it's hard not to catch them.

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    Default nice try

    Quote Originally Posted by Bfish View Post
    Good to hear folks are filling their freezers. That push of fish into the Kenai on Friday and Saturday coincided with the 36-hour commercial fishery closure window that was in place on the Kenai beaches from Thursday 11 pm until Saturday at 11 am. It usually takes a day or so after a fishery for the fish to reload the beaches and start moving into the river in numbers. A Friday-Saturday commercial fishery window was built into the management plan to provide predictable weekend opportunity for the personal use and sport fishery. According to the management plan there should be another 24 hour closure window on Tuesday or Wednesday. Fish on!
    There is no evidence the windows had anything to do with the push of fish on Sat. In fact, the best dip netting was prior to the weekend following a commercial opening. Lets keep the window discussion honest and try not to push KRSFA agenda Bfish. This is up I mean about bad science. The reason fish move to the beach is complicated and there are numerous days the commercial fishery did not fish and no fish showed up in the river. Look at the Kenai entry pattern and you will see this..

    Movement of fish to the beach is a multivariable issue and to quote a linear cause and effect is just silly.

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    Default

    I have fished the PU fishery at the Kenai mouth since it was started. I have found that the windows do provide a predictable period to catch fish. There are certainly other times that fish are in but I have found the weekend to be more productive than just picking a random day. I realize that my experience doesn't count, nor does that of anyone else unless it happens to agree with the "approved" science of a few anti-sport and PU fishing advocates.

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    Default out of line gusdog44

    Quote Originally Posted by gusdog44 View Post
    I have fished the PU fishery at the Kenai mouth since it was started. I have found that the windows do provide a predictable period to catch fish. There are certainly other times that fish are in but I have found the weekend to be more productive than just picking a random day. I realize that my experience doesn't count, nor does that of anyone else unless it happens to agree with the "approved" science of a few anti-sport and PU fishing advocates.
    Well, Gusdog44, as a member of KRSA and board of director, I understand your idea of science - no evidence or data- just comments without foundation. That is why I and other object to KRSA pseudoscience.

    This has nothing to do with anti-sport fishing or PU. I enjoy both and support both as do others who disagree with the idea that windows provide predictable harvest opportunity.

    There is no such thing as approved science - only defendable science. Your position is not defendable unless data are presented to support it.

  13. #13

    Default Windows

    Nerka, Are you seriously representing that the setnet fishery does not directly affect the sonar counts and that counts don't increase or decrease in direct response to closures and openers? Is that what most people fishing the PU fishery think?

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    Default Bfish answer

    No, Bfish you are not understanding my position. Of course the set nets impact the number of fish that enter the river. However, what I object to is the statement that the windows are timed in a way to match when fish move to the beach. The assumption of windows is that fish are constantly moving to the river and that they provide a time period when lots of fish will be available for harvest since the commercial fishery is not operating.

    Kenai sockeye do not behave that way. You can have a window and there are few fish on the beach and thus none available for harvest. In contrast, you can have 500,000 fish move to the beach and have a commercial day and they take only 300,000 fish and leave 200,000 to enter the river. PU fishing on those days would be good regardless of the commercial catch. That happened this year I believe although I have not recontructed the run.

    What a window does is increase the chance that all 500,000 fish will enter the river if the day they move to the beach happens during a window. That creates the early season situation where management has to fish hard when it has hours to protect themselves from this happening - 500,000 fish would be the majority of the escapement goal in one day or tide. So they fish harder during the season and I suspect increase the chinook harvest as a result. In addition, if the 500,000 hits the beach during a window there is no fishery to stop them and thus ADF&G must fish hard on the back end as they would be well above the goal range if they did not - the last three years are good examples.

    So the best cource of action is to allow ADF&G to use its EO authority as stated in the statues and let them put the escapement in over time.

    If one does not believe that 500,000 fish can enter on one or two tides just recontruct the run using the sonar counts and eastside set net fishery harvest - one must lag the various fisheries but on some days the fish on the beach can be close to 1 million on large Kenai returns. If that happens in a window the public does not win if escapement goal management is compromized.

    Finally, to promote the dip net fishery we should have proposals to fish into August. There are fish available and no reason not to fish - however the real reason there is no August fishery is that KRSA and the guides do not want coho caught. Do you want to respond to that gusdog44?

    Hope this helps the discussion.

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    Default To be honest

    I've actually done good when the boats/setnets were out (like this year) and I've done bad when they're out. Same deal when they didn't go out. DO I think it's a factor....sure...but I think there's several factors and they all contribute to whether the fish will hit the beach/river or not.

    Not trying to stir up the pot just my observations.

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    Default further comment

    Quote Originally Posted by Bfish View Post
    Nerka, Are you seriously representing that the setnet fishery does not directly affect the sonar counts and that counts don't increase or decrease in direct response to closures and openers? Is that what most people fishing the PU fishery think?
    There is one issue in the above statement is very misleading and that is that fish abundance at the river mouth is directly related to the sonar counts. That is not the actual reality. When fish hit the river mouth they tend to travel upstream at different rates depending on where in the season one is measuring. Early in the season a large volume of fish will spread out and it may take four days for a group of fish to move past the sonar site. Further into the season the fish tend to move faster but still a large group of fish at the mouth may spread out over a couple of days. It depends on river flow, volume of fish in the river, and other factors. So to try and equate the sonar counts directly back to the river mouth entry is not possible without making lots of assumptions.

    Just some more reasons why one should be careful in trying to correlate data that are confused by fish behavior patterns.

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    [quote=Nerka;128046]

    Finally, to promote the dip net fishery we should have proposals to fish into August. There are fish available and no reason not to fish - however the real reason there is no August fishery is that KRSA and the guides do not want coho caught. Do you want to respond to that gusdog44?


    I'm not sure why Nerka thinks I speak for KRSA - I do not -I am a member and I will mention that the windows he so despises and many of us find to be useful were from a KRSA proposal, KRSA went to bat at the Board of Fish to oppose the Steve Vanek proposal to cut the PU limit to 3 fish and had Ken Federico, the founder of the SouthCentral Dipnet association, at their booth at the Sportsman Show in Anchorage and Soldotna handing out membership information. I don't know where the information comes from that KRSA and the guides oppose an extension into August for the PU fishery - what info does Nerka have that the rest of us do not? Also, if an extension into August is such a good idea how come KAFC - the so-called "joe fisherman" organization to which Nerka belongs - did not put in such a proposal for the next BOF cycle??

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    Default was at the Board of Fish meeting

    [quote=gusdog44;128441]
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post

    Finally, to promote the dip net fishery we should have proposals to fish into August. There are fish available and no reason not to fish - however the real reason there is no August fishery is that KRSA and the guides do not want coho caught. Do you want to respond to that gusdog44?


    I'm not sure why Nerka thinks I speak for KRSA - I do not -I am a member and I will mention that the windows he so despises and many of us find to be useful were from a KRSA proposal, KRSA went to bat at the Board of Fish to oppose the Steve Vanek proposal to cut the PU limit to 3 fish and had Ken Federico, the founder of the SouthCentral Dipnet association, at their booth at the Sportsman Show in Anchorage and Soldotna handing out membership information. I don't know where the information comes from that KRSA and the guides oppose an extension into August for the PU fishery - what info does Nerka have that the rest of us do not? Also, if an extension into August is such a good idea how come KAFC - the so-called "joe fisherman" organization to which Nerka belongs - did not put in such a proposal for the next BOF cycle??
    I was at the BOF meeting and heard the testimony myself. Guides at the 2005 BOF meeting did not want the coho limit raised to three fish in the Kenai because they could get in two trips a day with the limit at 2. Also, KAFC and the commercial organizations opposed Steve V. proposal.

    KAFC took proposals from their membership and as far as I know they have not taken any position on an August fishery. I assume they would probably support such a proposal from PU fisherman but I cannot speak for them.

    However, Gusdog44 please do not answer a question with a question. Why did KRSA not put in a proposal for an August PU fishery if they support PU fisheries? Why did they oppose the August PU fishery when sockeye were present?

  19. #19
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    Default

    [quote=Nerka;128751]
    Quote Originally Posted by gusdog44 View Post

    I was at the BOF meeting and heard the testimony myself. Guides at the 2005 BOF meeting did not want the coho limit raised to three fish in the Kenai because they could get in two trips a day with the limit at 2. Also, KAFC and the commercial organizations opposed Steve V. proposal.

    KAFC took proposals from their membership and as far as I know they have not taken any position on an August fishery. I assume they would probably support such a proposal from PU fisherman but I cannot speak for them.

    However, Gusdog44 please do not answer a question with a question. Why did KRSA not put in a proposal for an August PU fishery if they support PU fisheries? Why did they oppose the August PU fishery when sockeye were present?
    I'm not sure how many times I have to say it - I do not speak for KRSA. That being said, I would presume that KRSA, like KAFC, did not have any requests from any of their 300+ members to extend the PU fishery. I would not be surprised if Ken Federico and the SCDA (Southcentral dipnet association) took your suggestion and put in such a proposal at the next cycle.

    I am not aware of KRSA opposing any increase in the limit on coho - according to posts on this forum by others they seem to have a goal of increasing the sport harvest of them. What information do you have to support your claim?

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    Default information

    I was at the meeting on Kenai coho. The ADF&G stated that the exploitation rate was about 40-45% for all users combined and that coho could withstand 60% or more. At that point the BOF asked in committee if the public wanted to go to a three fish bag limit in the Kenai. The guides and KRSA representatives indicated they did not want to go to three fish for the reasons I stated earlier. This put the BOF in a unique position - wanting to provide more coho to sport fisherman but having the major sport fishing groups oppose increased harvest. So they decided to reduce the exploitation rate upper limit to 55% in the name of conservation and they increased the commercial fishing opportunity on coho. If you need proof look at the regulation changes for the commercial set net fishery and drift fishery from the 2005 BOF meeting. Since the average Joe Fisherman was not in the committee meeting - the BOF controls who can sit on the committee they were not represented. Niether were personal use fisherman who could have had increased opportunity to harvest fish.

    At the 2008 BOF meeting I expect that PU fisherman will ask for extended seasons and they will have to fight both the guides, KRSA, and the commercial industry. They will need to clean up their act relative to habitat damage and other negatives from the fishery (hydrocarbons and high boat numbers with two strokes) but they have a reasonable arguement for more fishing time if they do this. The dunes at both Kasilof and Kenai are getting trashed and the garbage and litter left after the fishery is terrible - they need to pressure ADF&G and Parks to provide facilities to handle the volume of people. If not they will not win any increased fishing time.

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