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Thread: How do you control your legend?

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    Default How do you control your legend?

    Ok so another thread sparked this question in my head. For those of you that have been around for awhile... The legend is 46" wide. The tubes are 15 inch in diameter. If you put the oarlock in the center of the tube at 7.5 inches that leaves 31" oarlock to oarlock. Devide that by 2 and that leaves 15.5" for leverage from the oarlock to the end of the oar. Not much leverage. How do you do it? Shorter oars? Even then still not much leverage. Are they better suited for kayak paddles? In Larrys videos he uses a kayak paddle for his Kork and his Legend. Whats your preference? Why?

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    Member Jeff U's Avatar
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    There's some talk about using Buck Bags Pontoon frame on the Kork, perhaps it could be modified for the Legend. I have the Kork and will be experimenting with the Frame, as it appears to be a doable option.

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    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff U View Post
    There's some talk about using Buck Bags Pontoon frame on the Kork, perhaps it could be modified for the Legend. I have the Kork and will be experimenting with the Frame, as it appears to be a doable option.
    A couple of comments on this type of frame (we always called them "3-D" frames, because of the contour). I'm posting a photo of one of them to be sure we're talking about the same thing.

    frame.jpg

    First, a history lesson (for what it's worth). As near as I can tell, the first whitewater raft frames were made of wood, with cross-pieces to link the side plates together. They worked okay, but were really heavy and I would imagine they had torque issues, with flexing and such. Then folks started making frames out of steel conduit. The pieces were welded together, and they drastically reduced the weight over wooden frames, and could be contoured to fit down inside the boat, which gave you a lowered foot bar and a way to nest coolers and such. They also provided a way to securely attach oarlocks or pins, depending on user preference. A variation on that theme was to cut and sleeve / pin the cross-bars so the frame could be broken down into smaller pieces. This makes it possible to use a 3-D frame on an Alaska fly-out trip, where it has to be loaded into the aircraft. Some flat frames are built with conduit as well (basically the top portion of the frame only, without the drop features). Whereas the true 3-D frames can be loaded into an aircraft, they still take up a lot of room, even when the side pieces are nested together. They can also make some noise as the pin holes become wowed-out a bit, and you can get clicking and some squeaks while you're rowing, sounds that can scare game away on float hunts.

    Then Northwest River Supplies (NRS) came up with their "Lo-Pro" cast aluminum fittings, which made it possible to build a very strong frame out of 2" aluminum pipe. The first generation of these frames were not anodized, and your hands would become gray with aluminum dust if you handled them much. This was a result of the aluminum pipe oxidizing over time. NRS remedied this issue by switching to anodized pipe. They also reduced the size of the Lo Pro fittings to a narrower profile, reducing the overall weight of the frame.

    A variation of the aluminum pipe frames built by NRS is the frames that use the same pipe, but instead of Lo-Pro fittings, Hollaender Speedrail fittings are used. Hollaender makes a variety of fittings, including elbows, intersection crossovers, crossover tees, tee fittings, couplers, and much more. This gives a user the ability to fabricate just about anything they want, without having to use specialized equipment or welders. All you really need is a hacksaw and a drill. Hollaenders are usually secured to the pipe via a set screw, but it's not a very tight connection. So some frame shops drill a hole completely through the fitting and the inserted pipe, and install a quick-release clevis pin instead. The downside of this system is that the pins are made of steel (stainless is best, because of rust), and the pipe is aluminum. Eventually the pins will ream out the holes a bit, and you'll get some slop in the frame, with associated clicks and noises that are telegraphed across the water. Here's a photo of a Hollaender fitting.

    5-89.jpg

    The downside of both aluminum pipe frames is weight. The long bars can be cut and sleeved / pinned to fit into an aircraft, but the overall frame is going to be heavier than a conduit frame.

    I haven't been following conduit frames in a while, other than to note that some are no longer made with conduit, but are using cheap thin-wall aluminum instead. These frames often use push-button locking mechanisms to secure frame components together. I assume the reason these frames are being used with some manufacturers is to save weight. You often see them on the smaller boats. The biggest issue I see with these frames is strength and durability. The welds break, frame components are bent, and the push-buttons don't work as well over time.

    Having said all that, I don't know anything about the quality of the Bucks Bags frames. Are they using cheap aluminum pot metal? Or are they using a stronger material? I would check that out before committing. Yes, you get a drastic reduction in weight, but at what price?

    -Mike
    LOST CREEK COMPANY: Specializing in Alaska hunt consultation and planning for do-it-yourself hunts, fully outfitted hunts, and guided hunts.
    CLICK HERE to send me a private message.
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    "Dream big, and dare to fail." -Norman Vaughan
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  4. #4

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    Pay attention to the angle of your oar locks, they should NOT be vertically positioned on the tops of your tubes. Instead, angle the oar lock towers 15 degrees outward and then check your oars.

    The Cataract oars I sell with my raft designs have a special rope wrap that is closer to the handles so Oar Rights have slightly more adjustment. This allows us to get those grips from striking. The ones we sell mostly are 7.5'
    https://pristineventures.com

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    for what my 2 cents are worth on row kits for the Kork:

    44" beam width will be difficult to row comfortably, without extending the oar towers away from the tubes to accommodate the pivot point for the oars. The pivot point determines how much of the oar is outside the watercraft and inside the hull, which also determines the angle of water strike.

    If you make a frame style platform you might find the cross bars make your legs cramped, so try to think of that problem when you create the frame.

    The oar saddles for this boat and the Legend work functionally but not ideally on the Kork. The Kork doesn't need a row kit IMO because of its width, it's very responsive with a kayak paddle with or without a load.
    https://pristineventures.com

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    Member Jeff U's Avatar
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    https://photos.app.goo.gl/mtzIo7RdkLIPRXy72
    Buck Bags are Stainless Steel, https://bucksbags.com/ver193/fishing...oat-frame.html
    The way it's setup is angled away from 90 degrees, this plus your elevated much above the normal sitting heights places a leverage advantage and control over standard paddling. The elevated seat also provides more leg room compared to sitting low in the raft. The frame can be adjusted forward/backward depending on your load which is another key advantage.

  7. #7

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    Okay, last thought about the Kork and physics:

    Remember about the Kork why its designs works for some applications and might screw your performance in other scenarios, which is it's width/length/tube diam dims. Inherently what you'll have to combat is your Center of Gravity...especially if you raise your rowing position with a frame unit. You're weight and mass become huge factors in stability in the Kork as you elevate or raise your CG. Conversely, the lower you position your weight and mass the more stable this boat becomes.

    I'm not saying NOT to experiment with designing a row kit for it, just that sometimes our experiments cost us more than they are worth if the end result we want are unachievable.

    A good starting point to determine your CG is to keep your navel less than 5" above the top plane of the tubes. A raised seat for row platforms might compromise this rule of thumb. We use mesh platforms for seats and cargo so that sag works to our CG advantages, and these platforms are adjustable (mostly down to maximize CG).
    https://pristineventures.com

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    Mike- Do you know when the wooden rowing frames started showing up in Alaska. 1960's, before? Where were they invented? Thanks.

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    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty View Post
    Mike- Do you know when the wooden rowing frames started showing up in Alaska. 1960's, before? Where were they invented? Thanks.
    I sure don't. I have some older rafting books around here somewhere and they show them. The ones I saw used 2x6 lumber, connected with round-head carriage bolts. No reason it shouldn't still work, but there have to be issues with movement at the joints. Heavy too.

    If I would have to guess, I would say mid-1960's. Goo Voght would know, if you can find him. He used to run Alaska Wildwater, the Alaska SOTAR dealership. I heard he moved Outside to take care of his mom a while back though. Haven't seen him in a while. Jim King might know more too; he's been around the whitewater scene a while, and he's here in the forums.

    -Mike
    LOST CREEK COMPANY: Specializing in Alaska hunt consultation and planning for do-it-yourself hunts, fully outfitted hunts, and guided hunts.
    CLICK HERE to send me a private message.
    Web Address: http://alaskaoutdoorssupersite.com/hunt-planner/
    Mob: 1 (907) 229-4501
    "Dream big, and dare to fail." -Norman Vaughan
    "I have climbed my mountain, but I must still live my life." - Tenzig Norgay

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    Rafting didnít really get started until just after WW II when people started using surplus rubber rafts. I would imagine that wooden frames were invented at the same time. Prior to that, rivers were run in wooden boats and then dories with oars and locks.

  11. #11

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    Birdstrike and I are of like minds on this one.

    The earliest example I've found is in 1950. This guy was assigned to scout the Upper Colville River drainages. He did so in a 8' rubber raft developed for Pacific pilots in case they had to ditch in open water. He built a simple plywood frame and when he was finished with his summer work, he burned it and brought out the hardware and oars.

    No doubt this same concept was a prolific and spontaneous thought concept amongst all boaters because 2X4 lumber has always been easy to come by, whereas steel and aluminum were not.
    https://pristineventures.com

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    Very interesting. Thanks for the information.

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