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Thread: Handloading/Reloading

  1. #1
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    Default Handloading/Reloading

    Rolling your own ammunition is for some a chore and for some an integral part of the enjoyment of shooting. I'm in the latter group. I love to shoot, but I love to make ammo. It has been a driving passion of mine for a very long time, more than four decades now.

    I load for all kinds of metallic cartridge guns and all calibers. I actively solicite the opportunity to load ammo for my friends just to try something new. Well it's pretty hard to find something new now but I get a chance once in a while. I have bought guns in odd calibers just to have an excuse to buy another set of dies and load for a new one. I have lots of sets of dies!

    I have just finished a session, over the past two weeks, of loading for the 405 Winchester or WCF, as it is often called. I had loaded for it before but just a short session and didn't get all the data I wanted. This time, I bought a Ruger No. 1, and borrowed a late model 1895 Winchester (Miroku) light weight, take-down model. I loaded mostly the Hornady 300 grain but also used the Kodiak Bonded and a few cast bullets plus some 41 Mag revolver bullets both cast and JSP versions.

    Not to give away all my secrets but to let you know the general outcomes, I will say this is a fine caliber. 300 grain Hornady FP's or Kodiak bondeds with RL-7 and Rem 91/2 primers make for a great combination. I was able to achieve the mystical 2400 fps from the extremely strong Ruger and actually up to 2500 fps from it's 24" barrel. Of course the 1895 did not get those loads. I did easily get 2300 fps with no high pressure signs and I think that is a mild load for the 1895 but recoil is stiff. I did talk the owner into removing the steel but plate and installing a Pachmayer pad since he intends to hunt with this one. That helped a lot. RL-7 outshines all other powders and can be used with heavy or light, jacketed or cast bullets with equal aplumb. And, for some reason I cannot explain, the Remington primers work so well for me with rimmed cases. Maybe it is a psycological thing, I don't know. Another note, the 300 Hornady FP's were more accurate than the Spitzer (if that's what they call them) by a good margin. I was able to get 1 1/2" groups from the scoped Ruger with the FP's but only 3" with the SP's. THE load seemed to be 52.5 grains of RL-7 and the300 Hornady FP, which clocked 2387 fps from the 24" Ruger. In the 1895, 48.0 grains of RL-7 and the 300 FP was 2220 fps and shot nice round 3-4" groups with the iron sights, certainly all I could do. All in all, not a bad go round with this "new" old caliber.
    The Hornady brass is good but it is annealled and very soft at the mouth and care must be taken not to deform the case mouth when sizing or expanding cases. I assume the annealed case is to allow easier necking down to other calibers such as 35 WCF. I also had some leftover HDS brass which is very tough.

    I share this because it might be of some interest to folks since the 405 has a new following and a resurgence of popularity here lately, and Ruger and Winchester/Browning/Miroku are making new rifles. Good shootin'.

    Murphy

  2. #2

    Default I hear you Murphy!

    Murphy, I too am a handloader/shooter that loves to hunt. Why else do I have two cronagraphs and enough brass to outfit a battle ship?
    In 1960 I got a RCBS Jr press and a Lyman #55 measure - a Ohaus 505 scale and I never looked back! Now the bench has 4 metalic and 2 shotshell & a Dillion 550B for pistol - all kind of things that plug in & digital read outs - you know what - the bullets still come out the barrel same as before!
    I know what feeling when your hand load that you worked up just for "that" rifle does EXACTLY what you wanted it to do! I haven't shot any factory ammo for years. Before my first elk trip to Montana's Bob Marshall wilderness area I devolped my load and then in the 2 months before the trip I shot 500 rds freehand at gal milk jugs filled with water - started at 300 yds and walked in to 100 while shooting 10 rds - did this every evening when not raining.
    My shooting range has a 100 yd bench and I can shoot all the way out to 800 yds. and I check actual against the charts.
    I was talking to a navy seal - asked him how the 50 cals were for sniper rifles - he said that they were great but doping the wind was where the shooters fell down - he said that at 1000 yds most shooters could hit a pickup truck door every shot but to hit a man size target was a 50/50 deal because of the wind.
    I had the good fortune to know Jim Cooper a local gunsmith that was building brenchrest rifles for many of the top shooters in the 60's and 70's.
    Enough wandering in the past!

    Good shooting
    Pete

  3. #3

    Default 50 cal sniper rifles

    In an earlier post someone was talking about shooting eggs that were dangling in the breeze at 500 meters. I did the polite thing and kept my yap shut. However if Navy Seals have trouble hitting a man size target at 1000 yds with a 50 with all of the sophisticated wind doping gagets at their disposal. Then I gotta wonder about minute of egg at 500 meters!

  4. #4

    Default Long Range Shooting

    If you want to see what can be done at long range with the proper loads and rifles check out this post Long Range Hunting fourm.
    Dr B


    http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthrea...&page=0#112621

  5. #5

    Arrow egg shooting

    EKC. didn't say egg shooting was easy nor do you have a hit every time but do guarantee it's being done and it is a challenge try it you will like it especially when you hit one but take lot's of ammo.Good shooting Ronnie Butler

  6. #6

    Default Same, same Re: reloading

    Murphy,

    Yup, we do parallel a lot. The first 2 paragraphs of your post could have been written by myself verbatim! I once traded into a .224 Clark. This cartridge, for those who aren't familiar, shoots very heavy for caliber 80 and 85 grain .224 caliber bullets on a necked down 257 Roberts case. Mr. Tim Clark actually had Hornady make 2 runs of bullets for his design. The barrel on this Rem 700 action was a very heavy, full diameter 24" Hart stainless with a semi-benchrest stock, and a Balvar 8 power scope. But, it came with a custom set of dies and several thousand bullets along with formed cases. I needed this gun like [another] hole in the head, but it had dies, bullets and cases! Unfortunately the barrel was worn and I couldn't get better then 1" groups at 100 yards, so....

  7. #7

    Default 1000 yds

    Saw a article in a mag where a woman shot a 10 shot group measuring 6"x10" at 1000yds - this was done from a bench rest and they have flags every 100 yds so they can see what the wind is doing!
    The seals shoot under field conditions from what ever rest they have and have to dope the wind as best they can - much different than shooting on a range!
    I still don't want them shooting at me at 1000 yds.!

    Pete

  8. #8
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    Default Long Shooters

    Original post by EKC

    In an earlier post someone was talking about shooting eggs that were dangling in the breeze at 500 meters. I did the polite thing and kept my yap shut. However if Navy Seals have trouble hitting a man size target at 1000 yds with a 50 with all of the sophisticated wind doping gagets at their disposal. Then I gotta wonder about minute of egg at 500 meters!


    Well, here's my take on this........ahh..information.

    First, don't bet the farm on a Navy SEAL not being able to hit a man sized target at 1000 meters. I mean, I guess the FNG's are good. I have some experience with just that...all of that. The 50 shooters of today shoot groups of about four (4) inches at 1000 meters every year at the annual competition for military shooters. Also the 750 grain bullets of the 50 don't walk around very much in the wind.

    Second, show me one, that is 1, I want to see ONE shooter, scope, egg combination that can make an egg visable at 500 meters (or yards), then we'll talk about marksmanship. This goes for the golf ball also. I will pay 100 American dollars to see a shooter fire one shot from a hunting rifle (see hunting rifle definition in previous post) and hit an egg (or golf ball) at a mere 300 yards, from a field position (no bench rest). It would be well worth it for me, just to see it.

    I know I'm the worst shot on this forum. I have a master classification card from the NRA for High Power Rifle, and about five pistol disciplines, and am military distinguished in rifle and pistol. Have won many championships in both rifle and pistol. Have been schooled in long range target dispatch, and have to my credit, well into double digits of 'confirmeds' in excess of 800 meters, but cannot shoot tiny little groups the way some here are able to do. I don't even in my wildest fantasies believe I can hit a golf ball or even a goose egg at 500 meters. I once hit a fat prairie dog at 1147 yards (lasered the mound with military equipment) with a 6.5x284, (With a Mk 4 16x, on a rail scope mount with 20 MOA of drop). Hit him on the third shot, missed the mound the first shot, over on the second. Technically that is the best shot I ever made. (I said I wasn't very good.) I once hit a North American Pronghorn antelope at 367 with a single shot pistol, my longest with a handgun, but not the most difficult. But, I could never hope to hit an egg at 500. I don't think I'm getting any better, either. Oh, well.

    Just some input and observations from an old shooter, not trying to offend anyone, just smokin'. Good shootin'.

    Murphy

  9. #9
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    Default

    Egg Shooting...OK..500m as is meters?

    500m = 546.8yds for us metrically challenged folk; lets just round off to .31 miles (1/3 Mile)
    An Egg... A Target with an effective surface diameter of 2 inches or 5.08cm staying on track with metrics.

    Target defined: one 5cm objective at one third of a mile

    I need some more info to prove your target can be achieved. Here's some problems I'm running into and you can help me out on this.

    Wind: Is it a full or oblique wind value? can you give me an example of your vectors?
    MOA: Most rifles are MOA capable these days, not an uncommon thing to have a tack driver out of the box, however standard MOA at 546.8 yds will be 5.5 giving you a possible deviation of 11 inches diameter around your target, similar to a paper plate. Can you give me the Measured MOA on the equipment your using?
    Bullet Drop: I need the ballistics of your equipment, please? You see, the standard bullet Drop at 500m would be 71 inches.

    So the Target objective is sending a bullet 1/3 of a mile and drop it 6ft to hit a 2in target.

    There are still open vectors such as wind value, MOA deviation, angle of shot...

    If you can give the rest of the calculations and conditions to achieve this shot, All of us Alaskans would be very interested...
    God, Guns and Guts is what made America Great

  10. #10

    Default Long Range PD

    Murphy check this one out.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  11. #11
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    Default Long shot!

    Nice shootin' DR B. Ain't it funny how they stay together so well at long range. What is your equipment? Those are tough shots, huh?

    Murphy

  12. #12

    Default Kirby Allen

    Murphy I whish that was me It's a Pic Of Kirby Allen a Montana gunsmith and his new varmit riflr Black Sunshine. Kirby makes long range hnting rifles that are verey accurate .5 MOA at 1000 yds is not unusual.
    Black Sunshine is a
    .338 Allen Mag
    BAT action
    40" 1.75" Lija barrel
    McMillian stock
    weight 60 Lb
    300 gr SMK @ 3500fps

    I'm not in the same league as Kirby and his friends when it comes to long range shooting. Maybe one day.
    DR B

  13. #13

    Arrow More eggs huh

    Well guys we are not shooting hunting rifles and for sure not off hand they are target rifles and we have good spotters too, ever walked a bullet in on a target.While it is apparent some of you think I'm full of it I assure you it is and has been done hear for a few years now.It's seems to me another shooter was thought to be full of it many years ago he made a awful long shot with a handgun and I don't think it bothered him too much that some folks thought he was pulling their leg and I assure you it's not a bother to me either but a little later on as I recall some folks came forward that saw the shot.You folks don't know me so here are a couple of guys you might know that have shot at eggs at 500 meters Jim Clark Jr. of Clark custom guns his brother in law Jerry Miculek of Smith and Wesson feel free to give um a call and see if they have ever shot eggs at Bucky Murdocks range in Zwolle,La.around Easter for the past few years.Mr. Murdock passed away two years ago his range was the only one around here we could shoot that far on, several state rifle silhouette matches were held there also and with that I'm done on the subject of eggs.Good shooting guys Ronnie.

  14. #14
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    Default Eggs on my face....

    Ronnie,

    I didn't mean to offend, I realize there are lots of good shooters and lots of good specialized equipment. I was just seeing post about this egg shoot and golf ball shoot and thought it a little out of point for anyone with a big game hunting rifle. I know about Jim and Jerry and have seen them both shoot. I know all about walkin' 'em in. That's the technique when doggin'. And I have used it on several other occasions. I just don't think I could even see an egg at 500 yards with what I have for equipment. I have in the past used such equipment, but would not consider it......sporting equipment (heavy too). Didn't mean to beat you up. I know where you're coming from, stay cool.

    Good shootin'.

    Murphy
    Last edited by Murphy; 06-27-2006 at 21:02.

  15. #15

    Default Ronnie

    Just because something boggles my mind doesn't mean it can't happen. Now that I know whats involved and who's involved I'll just give you my respect and say that its a different level than where I am at!

    Is this the same Clark customizer that makes a silk purse out of a sows ear? I am refering to the mini14.
    Last edited by elmerkeithclone; 06-27-2006 at 14:55.

  16. #16
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    While were passing out sorry

    I remember in the army when the golf ball test was presented to my group. At first when told to shoot a golf ball off a tee at 250yds; 10 targets, 10 shots 90% was the bar to pass. Miss one PASS miss 2- FAIL. We ALL LAUGHED!! Easy, right? All are required to be expert rifleman to be selected for the course. Well, we were not laughing when we were at the range. IT requires Every Element of shooting skills to be successful. At the end of the day, we were all reading the books and studying the physics that makes this shot possible. This basic test washed several people out of the class.
    My intention of mentioning it was to share a simple test that will help build develop shooting discipline and improve the use of optic settings.

    When I saw the egg at 500m with a full wind drift engaging moving targets I SAW it AS: 71"bullet drop, 22" wind drift engaging a target with a possible deviation of 9" on a stationary target: to adjust a scope to compensate variables and score a hit in ONE SHOT???

    I didn't want to call BS, because it is a possible shot...for a professional, or a very good BR guy. I was just trying to smoke you out to see if you were for real, or making up some ridiculous story. I figured if you're a Bench Rester, you'll come back with the math, equipment and conditions to accomplish the task or if a pro, you would give the firing solution.
    I didn't think of "walking in the target" as that is more of a machine gunner technique than a long range discipline.

    sorry to be so hard on you.
    God, Guns and Guts is what made America Great

  17. #17

    Arrow eggs last time

    Guys,I assure you all no offense taken everyone is entitled to their opinion thats what makes this forum so great and yes that is the same Jim Clark that makes silk purses out of mini 14s and many other nice toys too and Murphy old guys like us do get to paint the eggs after 50 misses and I did miss 50 times before I got a hit with a 220 swift.Buckys 14 pound 264 mag with 6.5X20 Leupold could do it about 1 out of 5 times only guy I ever saw do it with a hunting rifle was shooting a custom 7mm STW with a 4.5X14 leupold weight 8.5 lbs on the 20th shot.Jim Clark uses his 308 heavy barrel M77 Ruger with his old 10 power weaver target the same rig he won 2 La.state silhoutte championships with and he is indeed one young man you wouldn't want to shoot at you at any range.He is still shooting some 3 gun matches but his thing now is the sniper matches he is winning alot of them too.Jerry is starting to shoot a sniper match every once in a while with Jim that's another man you wouldn't want shooting at you at any range too.I'm proud to call both men my good friends both are always perfect gentleman at all times and a pure pleasure to watch shoot rifle shotgun or pistol and again good shooting to you all.Ronnie

  18. #18

    Default 4" @1000m

    Murphy
    You're not saying that all these 50 cal guys are shooting 4" groups?
    I don't doubt a 4" group at 1000m BUT what is the average of all the shooters groups? Don't have to screw up much to completely blow a group at 1000m! Are these guys using a benchrest? How much do these guns weight? I think the seals are using a Barret(sp) 50cal - I think that he said it weighted about 24#& had a bipod.
    I shot a crow across 40 acres (corner to corner) + 105 paces out of a truck window with a 15-20 mph wind blowing across with a 6mm Rem. in a Remington 700 varminter 30 yeats ago but would not claim that was something that I did every day.(lots of Kentucky windage and elevation & a prayer)
    Shooting eggs at 500m - I know that I can hit a egg at that distance - the only question is how big the pile of spent brass would be before I hit one!!!!!! I think they call it the "law of probability".

    Great discussion!
    Pete

  19. #19

    Default

    Damgoodshot
    Not all 50 cal shooters can shoot a 4" group at 1000yd in fact most can't. Most 50 cal shooters that are serious about accuracy also shoot custom 50s. Mine weights 34lb without the scope or ammo.
    The advantage of the 50 BMG is not at 1000yd but at much longer distance. The 6.5-284 or 6 mm BR are two of the most accurate accurate 1000 yd rounds.
    The fifty when using high BC bullets like Hornaday 750gr AMax BC 1.050 can stay supersonic futher down range than most other rounds. We all know that when a bullet goes subsonic it looses accuracy.

    Dr B

  20. #20

    Default Thanks Dr. B

    Thanks for the insight into your sport. What are the bullets traveling at the muzzle? Military specs are 2800fps? Got any pics of a good group that you could post? Being a reloader/shooter I know how tought it is to get everything to click at once to get that super group. Hey - I shot a .250"/5 shot group with a 6mm - one time! Most are double that or bigger.
    I find that some guns - I have 4, a 22-250, 6mm Rem, 284win and a 7mm weatherby- that shoot better than I am capable of.

    Shoot straight & often
    Pete

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