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Thread: Can I dip Chitna AND personal use fish the Kasilof?

  1. #41
    Member hoose35's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruffle View Post
    The State Constitution prioritizes subsistence/personal, yet case precedent and subsequent statute (as well as management policies) clearly places a preference on commercial fishing. That has been clear for a long time.

    A recent ISER report reveals that the State spends approximately $280 Million MORE/year subsidizing commercial fishing than they receive in revenues from commercial fishing and processing, and that the vast majority of persons working in that segment of our economy, whether in direct fishing jobs, or processing and tending, are NOT Alaska residents. (More corporate welfare? Not too unlike our history with oil and timber, mind you).

    Then there's the federally protected wanton waste created or committed by the trawlers; a whole 'nother can of worms.
    Does the state constitution actually prioritize personal use? Or is it just subsistence? There is a big difference.


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    I've always understood Personal Use to be second in line, as a matter of priority, to subsistence, in the State Constitution's interpretation, as written. As stated earlier, that's been 'turned on its head.'

    But if you read Article 8, Sections 1 & 2, where it discusses 'maximum benefit (to the residents of Alaska)', just as it's been argued in re. to oil revenues, it can be applied to any resource the State views as a State-owned/controlled resource.

    If we're paying out $280 million per year in subsidies in excess of what we take in in revenue from commercial fishing, then I'd assert that this is NOT to the maximum benefit of all Alaskans.

    In contrast, those persons able to harvest the resource on a relatively equal basis, are involved in a venture that stands to benefit far more Alaskans than losing money to a subsidized industry.

    I also think the State's differentiation between subsistence and personal use, where fishing is concerned, is splitting hairs on the State's part (for political purposes), especially in light of their rulings re. equal access and the loosening of the barriers to participation in subsistence fishing and hunting. At that point, in my opinion, other than to benefit specific groups, it largely becomes a matter of "you say tomato, I say tomaaato.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoose35 View Post
    Does the state constitution actually prioritize personal use? Or is it just subsistence? There is a big difference.


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  3. #43
    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoose35 View Post
    Does the state constitution actually prioritize personal use? Or is it just subsistence? There is a big difference.


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    I definitely agree!
    Subsistence and personal use are vastly different things from a legal standpoint.
    People use the terms interchangeably and I am always quick to correct them.
    I've participated or help in all manner of fishing.
    But when it comes to subsistence even on my own boat I can't catch the fish or handle the gear.
    Only those qualifying individuals can do that.
    Living just outside Soldotna and being a white man I don't qualify.
    But I can participate in PU fishing anywhere it's allowed.
    It's not tomatoe- tomaato.
    It's more like tomato-potato.
    Close but clearly different.
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    The difference in re. to Chitina, between subsistence and PU fisheries, is which form you ask for when you go in to ADF&G; nothing more, and nothing less.. And after that, the form you requested defines which side of the McCarthy Bridge you have to fish from. But by rulings at the State Supreme Court, equal access is equal access.

    I can go into ADF&G and get a subsistence permit for the Yukon and Tanana Rivers, too. Have nets, but haven't seen fit to do it..

    That's the legal separation I know of.

    Quote Originally Posted by kasilofchrisn View Post
    I definitely agree!
    Subsistence and personal use are vastly different things from a legal standpoint.
    People use the terms interchangeably and I am always quick to correct them.
    I've participated or help in all manner of fishing.
    But when it comes to subsistence even on my own boat I can't catch the fish or handle the gear.
    Only those qualifying individuals can do that.
    Living just outside Soldotna and being a white man I don't qualify.
    But I can participate in PU fishing anywhere it's allowed.
    It's not tomatoe- tomaato.
    It's more like tomato-potato.
    Close but clearly different.

  5. #45
    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruffle View Post
    The difference in re. to Chitina, between subsistence and PU fisheries, is which form you ask for when you go in to ADF&G; nothing more, and nothing less.. And after that, the form you requested defines which side of the McCarthy Bridge you have to fish from. But by rulings at the State Supreme Court, equal access is equal access.

    I can go into ADF&G and get a subsistence permit for the Yukon and Tanana Rivers, too. Have nets, but haven't seen fit to do it..

    That's the legal separation I know of.
    Ok lets say you and forum member Agl4now bring dipnets to the russian river.
    You each dip 20 red salmon.
    As you prepare to leave you are approached by the US Fish and wildlife service.
    Who gets a fine and who walks away?
    Well Agl4now proves he lives in Sunrise/hope Ak and has subsistence rights.
    You on the other hand do not.
    See the difference there? The feds say he qualifies based on where he lives.
    Equal access does not apply here.
    Now the next weekend you both get harvest cards and dip the Kasilof.
    You each get 20 fish.
    You get apprpached by a wildlife trooper. You both are legal so nobody gets in trouble.
    Forum member Cod can get fish from a gilnet in the upper Kenai river but you don't live in Ninilchik so you cannot participate.
    My friend Danny can fish subsistence halibut and harvest 20 a day because he is native from a qualifying tribe yet you cannot.
    There is a difference in PU and subsistence in many areas that is more complicated than just which paperwork you fill out.
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    Having just gotten off the telephone to confirm that my memory of law was not abandoning me, I can truly assert that my earlier claims were correct.

    And the separation of who can fish subsistence in all waters, under ALL laws (Federal and State) has nothing -overtly- to do with race or Native Band membership.

    The key difference under federal law versus State law is this; neither entity may discriminate based on racial identity. HOWEVER, the State cannot discriminate based upon zip code of residence, and the feds can.

    Having lived in a number of Native villages, thereby having that zip code (pick one) as my residence, when living there, I'd have been eligible for a subsistence permit UNDER FEDERAL LAW, even as a non-Native.

    As a State resident, according to State law, I can get a subsistence permit to fish any darned body of fishable water I choose to.

    Now, who does the bulk of enforcement in this State; State ADF&G or Federal US Fish and Wildlife?.. Outside of fishing in a National Park, I mean.

    And again, as a NON-NATIVE, if my zip code happens to be in a village in remote Alaska, even as a NON-NATIVE, I can legally fish subsistence under Federal Laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by kasilofchrisn View Post
    Ok lets say you and forum member Agl4now bring dipnets to the russian river.
    You each dip 20 red salmon.
    As you prepare to leave you are approached by the US Fish and wildlife service.
    Who gets a fine and who walks away?
    Well Agl4now proves he lives in Sunrise/hope Ak and has subsistence rights.
    You on the other hand do not.
    See the difference there? The feds say he qualifies based on where he lives.
    Equal access does not apply here.
    Now the next weekend you both get harvest cards and dip the Kasilof.
    You each get 20 fish.
    You get apprpached by a wildlife trooper. You both are legal so nobody gets in trouble.
    Forum member Cod can get fish from a gilnet in the upper Kenai river but you don't live in Ninilchik so you cannot participate.
    My friend Danny can fish subsistence halibut and harvest 20 a day because he is native from a qualifying tribe yet you cannot.
    There is a difference in PU and subsistence in many areas that is more complicated than just which paperwork you fill out.

  7. #47
    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruffle View Post
    Having just gotten off the telephone to confirm that my memory of law was not abandoning me, I can truly assert that my earlier claims were correct.

    And the separation of who can fish subsistence in all waters, under ALL laws (Federal and State) has nothing -overtly- to do with race or Native Band membership.

    The key difference under federal law versus State law is this; neither entity may discriminate based on racial identity. HOWEVER, the State cannot discriminate based upon zip code of residence, and the feds can.

    Having lived in a number of Native villages, thereby having that zip code (pick one) as my residence, when living there, I'd have been eligible for a subsistence permit UNDER FEDERAL LAW, even as a non-Native.

    As a State resident, according to State law, I can get a subsistence permit to fish any darned body of fishable water I choose to.

    Now, who does the bulk of enforcement in this State; State ADF&G or Federal US Fish and Wildlife?.. Outside of fishing in a National Park, I mean.

    And again, as a NON-NATIVE, if my zip code happens to be in a village in remote Alaska, even as a NON-NATIVE, I can legally fish subsistence under Federal Laws.
    OK you said personal Use and Subsistence were virtually same-same. When in fact for many/most subsistence activities you must be an Alaskan resident and a member of a rural qualifying community and/or a member of a qualifying Alaska native tribe.
    I never said you could not qualify for subsistence but it's quite likely you do not (your profile doesn't list your community of residency). Because of where the majority of us live the majority of Alaskans do not qualify.Not because we could not qualify but because we chose to live where we do not qualify. And if we are also not members of qualifying Alaskan native tribes then we can not participate in many/most subsistence activities.
    The only requirements to qualify for Personal Use fishing is that you must be an Alaskan resident. Nothing more is required to qualify though you do need a fishing license and harvest card to participate in most cases.
    Any Alaskan resident can Personal Use fish so long as you are a resident but not all Alaskans qualify for participation in most subsistence activities.
    Now do you see the difference?
    So as an Alaskan resident I can not participate in subsistence activities because of where I choose to live as I do not qualify.
    So unless you change your community of residency you can not participate in any subsistence activity you choose either.
    Simply having a PO box there is not good enough. You must reside there as your primary residence.
    So the two phrases "Subsistence" and "Personal use" can not and should not be used interchangeably as they are different and confusion often results when you call them the same thing.
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    So, I'll reiterate; I can legally walk into any ADF&G office, regardless of my residence address in Alaska, and request a SUBSISTENCE permit, legally, under State law, for -any- fishable waters that allow ANY subsistence fishing, and I can receive said permit.. regardless of my community of residence, etc.

    I live 20 miles south of Fairbanks, toward Nenana, and roughly a 1/4 mile from the Tanana River, and I can walk into ADF&G today, and receive a State permit for subsistence fishing on the Tanana River, Yukon River, Copper River, et al..

    And it will, 99.9% of the time, be Alaska State Troopers Fish and Wildlife Officers doing any enforcement in that regard. For AST F&W Troopers, the ADF&G-issued subsistence permit makes it totally legal.

    What I said re. PU and subsistence, in my initial reply to Hoose, is that under the State Constitution's wording and original intent, PU comes second in line to subsistence. (*Not third to commercial interests).

    BUT, that is made more or less moot when you consider that under current laws (* i.e. current State law and related precedent) ALL Alaska residents can obtain a STATE subsistence fishing permit, REGARDLESS of the address in the State of their home residence.

    Again, I can -legally- go to ADF&G TODAY, and obtain any subsistence fishing permit I like.

    Ask the Copper River subsistence folks when the last time is they had to answer questions posed by a U.S. Fish & Wildlife Officer. Then ask them when they last saw an AST Fish & Game Officer.

  9. #49
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    Straight from the horse's mouth:
    "All Alaska residents, and ONLY Alaska residents, are eligible to participate in both Subsistence and Personal Use fisheries. Subsistence and Personal Use fisheries are managed under different regulations. A valid Resident Sport Fishing License is required to participate in Personal Use fisheries, but is not required to participate in Subsistence fisheries."
    http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm...ntfishing.main
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  10. #50
    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruffle View Post
    So, I'll reiterate; I can legally walk into any ADF&G office, regardless of my residence address in Alaska, and request a SUBSISTENCE permit, legally, under State law, for -any- fishable waters that allows ANY subsistence fishing, and I can receive said permit.. regardless of my community of residence, etc.

    I live 20 miles south of Fairbanks, and I can walk into ADF&G today, and receive a State permit for subsistence fishing on the Tanana River, Yukon River, Copper River, et al..

    And it will, 99.9% of the time, be Alaska State Troopers Fish and Wildlife Officers doing any enforcement in that regard. For AST F&W Troopers, the ADF&G-issued subsistence permit makes it totally legal.

    What I said re. PU and subsistence, in my initial reply to Hoose, is that under the State Constitution's wording and original intent, PU comes second in line to subsistence. (*Not third to commercial interests).

    BUT, that is made more or less moot when you consider that under current laws (* i.e. current State law and related precedent) ALL Alaska residents can obtain a STATE subsistence fishing permit, REGARDLESS of the address in the State of their home residence.

    Again, I can -legally- go to ADF&G TODAY, and obtain any subsistence fishing permit I like.

    Ask the Copper River subsistence folks when the last time is they had to answer questions posed by a U.S. Fish & Wildlife Officer. Then ask them when they last saw an AST Fish & Game Officer.
    Wrong again!
    try going in Tomorrow and applying for a Subsistence Halibut Area registration Card(SHARC). I know plenty of people with these cards but you will be denied if you do not qualify by residency or tribal affiliation.Guaranteed!!!
    Same thing for a permit to subsistence fish the Russian river or the upper Kenai Subsistence gilnet fishery.
    There are more subsistence fisheries than just the state fisheries and the federal fisheries will deny you if you do not qualify!
    No doubt about it.
    You might get the state permits but this statement is blatantly false as you'll not get the federal permits and there are plenty of those federal subsistence permits out there!!
    So, I'll reiterate; I can legally walk into any ADF&G office, regardless of my residence address in Alaska, and request a SUBSISTENCE permit, legally, under State law, for -any- fishable waters that allows ANY subsistence fishing, and I can receive said permit.. regardless of my community of residence, etc.
    When you get your SHARC card (if you don't already qualify by residency and/or tribal affiliation)please post a copy of it and I'll eat my words. But like I said not all Alaskans can get one. Not all Alaskans qualify for this subsistence fishery.
    And just because you have one for one area doesn't necessarily mean you can fish subsistence halibut in all areas.
    My ex and her family went through this as have many of my friends and while I'm no expert I have a pretty good idea of how the SHARC card works.
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    I was fairly certain we were specifically speaking to salmon fisheries in this thread, no?

    And under State law, -current- State law, I can legally request and receive a subsistence permit for salmon on ALL of the waterways that permit subsistence salmon fishing, even though I do not live in one of the zip codes the feds (wisely) define as more deserving.

    The earlier assertions that ANY of these subsistence salmon fishing permits are based on race is commentary that incites racist division.

    But call ADF&G and inquire yourself. I did.

    Quote Originally Posted by kasilofchrisn View Post
    Wrong again!
    try going in Tomorrow and applying for a Subsistence Halibut Area registration Card(SHARC). I know plenty of people with these cards but you will be denied if you do not qualify by residency or tribal affiliation.Guaranteed!!!
    Same thing for a permit to subsistence fish the Russian river or the upper Kenai Subsistence gilnet fishery.
    There are more subsistence fisheries than just the state fisheries and the federal fisheries will deny you if you do not qualify!
    No doubt about it.
    You might get the state permits but this statement is blatantly false as you'll not get the federal permits and there are plenty of those federal subsistence permits out there!!

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    Not sure if there was some confusion or not, cdubbin. I don't think anyone here debated that NON-residents could get subsistence or personal use permits here. We were addressing specific residence addresses/zip codes WITHIN the State, per federal law, versus State law. Or at least I was.

    Quote Originally Posted by cdubbin View Post

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    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruffle View Post
    I was fairly certain we were specifically speaking to salmon fisheries in this thread, no?

    And under State law, -current- State law, I can legally request and receive a subsistence permit for salmon on ALL of the waterways that permit subsistence salmon fishing, even though I do not live in one of the zip codes the feds (wisely) define as more deserving.

    The earlier assertions that ANY of these subsistence salmon fishing permits are based on race is commentary that incites racist division.

    But call ADF&G and inquire yourself. I did.
    No you cannot! And no need to call I already know the answer as some of these these are federal subsistence salmon fisheries and the state does not and cannot regulate them.
    Ask ADF&G if you can subsistence fish the Russian river for red Salmon as some of our forum members qualify to do.
    Or the upper Kenai with a gillnet as some of our other forum members also qualify to do.
    You will be denied if you are not from one of the rural qualifying communities or affiliated with a qualifying native tribe.
    I never brought race into this debate other than the fact that in some cases it is an additional qualifier for certain subsistence activities.
    You need to clarify your statement by saying "State" Subsistence fisheries as They differ vastly from "federal" subsistence fisheries in who qualifies!
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    I think I fairly well clarified the most basic of differences between federal and State subsistence eligibility in the post below, quite a while earlier...

    """.Having just gotten off the telephone to confirm that my memory of law was not abandoning me, I can truly assert that my earlier claims were correct.

    And the separation of who can fish subsistence in all waters, under ALL laws (Federal and State) has nothing -overtly- to do with race or Native Band membership.

    The key difference under federal law versus State law is this; neither entity may discriminate based on racial identity. HOWEVER, the State cannot discriminate based upon zip code of residence, and the feds can.

    Having lived in a number of Native villages, thereby having that zip code (pick one) as my residence, when living there, I'd have been eligible for a subsistence permit UNDER FEDERAL LAW, even as a non-Native.

    As a State resident, according to State law, I can get a subsistence permit to fish any darned body of fishable water I choose to.

    Now, who does the bulk of enforcement in this State; State ADF&G or Federal US Fish and Wildlife?.. Outside of fishing in a National Park, I mean.

    And again, as a NON-NATIVE, if my zip code happens to be in a village in remote Alaska, even as a NON-NATIVE, I can legally fish subsistence under Federal Laws."""

    The thread topic herein defined the parameters to fresh water rivers and salmon dip-netting; specifically the Copper River and those PU fisheries near or including the Kenai.

    No specific segregation for eligibility for subsistence fishing relies explicitly on racial membership; they rely on zip code under federal law, and under State laws, rural, non-Native persons may fish via subsistence permit.. Even if they live on Ingra, in downtown Anchorage.

    Federal jurisdiction is federal jurisdiction, and separate from State. The State's standards for who can fish via subsistence permit is quite different from the fed's

    Lastly, and to repeat myself yet again, the original intent in the State Constitution placed PU fisheries second in line to subsistence.

    You might benefit from examining the context in which you're replying, rather than throwing in all the proverbial red herrings or exceptions to the rule you can muster.


    Quote Originally Posted by kasilofchrisn View Post
    No you cannot! And no need to call I already know the answer as some of these these are federal subsistence salmon fisheries and the state does not and cannot regulate them.
    Ask ADF&G if you can subsistence fish the Russian river for red Salmon as some of our forum members qualify to do.
    Or the upper Kenai with a gillnet as some of our other forum members also qualify to do.
    You will be denied if you are not from one of the rural qualifying communities or affiliated with a qualifying native tribe.
    I never brought race into this debate other than the fact that in some cases it is an additional qualifier for certain subsistence activities.
    You need to clarify your statement by saying "State" Subsistence fisheries as They differ vastly from "federal" subsistence fisheries in who qualifies!

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    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruffle View Post
    I think I fairly well clarified the most basic of differences between federal and State subsistence eligibility in the post below, quite a while earlier...

    """.Having just gotten off the telephone to confirm that my memory of law was not abandoning me, I can truly assert that my earlier claims were correct.

    And the separation of who can fish subsistence in all waters, under ALL laws (Federal and State) has nothing -overtly- to do with race or Native Band membership.

    The key difference under federal law versus State law is this; neither entity may discriminate based on racial identity. HOWEVER, the State cannot discriminate based upon zip code of residence, and the feds can.

    Having lived in a number of Native villages, thereby having that zip code (pick one) as my residence, when living there, I'd have been eligible for a subsistence permit UNDER FEDERAL LAW, even as a non-Native.

    As a State resident, according to State law, I can get a subsistence permit to fish any darned body of fishable water I choose to.

    Now, who does the bulk of enforcement in this State; State ADF&G or Federal US Fish and Wildlife?.. Outside of fishing in a National Park, I mean.

    And again, as a NON-NATIVE, if my zip code happens to be in a village in remote Alaska, even as a NON-NATIVE, I can legally fish subsistence under Federal Laws."""

    The thread topic herein defined the parameters to fresh water rivers and salmon dip-netting; specifically the Copper River and those PU fisheries near or including the Kenai.

    No specific segregation for eligibility for subsistence fishing relies explicitly on racial membership; they rely on zip code under federal law, and under State laws, rural, non-Native persons may fish via subsistence permit.. Even if they live on Ingra, in downtown Anchorage.

    Federal jurisdiction is federal jurisdiction, and separate from State. The State's standards for who can fish via subsistence permit is quite different from the fed's

    Lastly, and to repeat myself yet again, the original intent in the State Constitution placed PU fisheries second in line to subsistence.

    You might benefit from examining the context in which you're replying, rather than throwing in all the proverbial red herrings or exceptions to the rule you can muster.
    You continue to say you can get a subsistence permit for any darned fishable water you choose.
    I'm just pointing out that you are wrong!
    State law doesn't trump federal law and there is more than one federal subsistence salmon fisheriey out there on the Kenai.
    But there are no state subsistence fisheries on the Kenai that I'm aware of. Please correct me if i'm wrong on that.
    If I recall correctly there are two federal subsistence fisheries, an educational fishery, a personal use fishery, and a sport fishery on the Kenai river itself.
    The educational fishery requires tribal affiliation the subsistence fisheries require residency of qualifying community, the PU requires only state residency, and sport requires purchase of a license by anyone over 16 years old.
    Either way personal use and subsistence are different even though you claimed they were virtually the same.
    Timeframes, personal limits, gear types, lots of differences.
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruffle View Post
    Not sure if there was some confusion or not, cdubbin. I don't think anyone here debated that NON-residents could get subsistence or personal use permits here. We were addressing specific residence addresses/zip codes WITHIN the State, per federal law, versus State law. Or at least I was.
    No, no confusion...you pointed out that all state residents are eligible for subsistence/personal use fishing, and I thought it was worth reiterating....Alaska law does not discriminate amongst residents for these fisheries, although there are non- subsistence AREAS...Anchorage, KP, Fairbanks, Juneau, Ketchikan...basically the urban parts. Any state resident can go subsistence fish most of the rest of the state to their heart's content...again, thought it was worth repeating considering some of the misdirection on this thread....
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    I need to correct a numerical error on my part that resulted in a gross misrepresentation.

    The recent ISER study did not report that the State of Alaska loses $280 million a year subsidizing commercial fishing. It stated Alaska loses about $28 million/year subsidizing commercial fishing, once State subsidies to commercial fishing are subtracted from revenues to the State that result from commercial fishing.

    In either case, the State is basically paying for a (largely non-resident) group to take our fish.

    While $28 million/year is a far cry from $280 million/year, it is a large amount of money/corporate welfare when we're going broke.

    Apologies for the error in memory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by uhldwm View Post
    Just my $ .02 worth, but my understanding is that you can fish both and limit out on both, but how many fish do you and your immediate family need, and what will just go to waste or given away? Neither of these fisheries are intended for wastage or supplying your friends and neighbors that live outside your family, and especially in the Lower 48 with salmon. If that is a person's desire, do it with sport fish caught salmon, and maybe that is also illegal, I really don't know in that category. Keep in mind that the regulations are for the sustained viability of the species as well as personal use and subsistence use.
    'Thanks' for the lecture. I bet I know what I need a lot better than you do. Nice armchair quarterbacking, btw.


    Quote Originally Posted by kasilofchrisn View Post
    That does make sense.
    If your Chitna trip doesn't fill all your needs maybe a Kenai/Kasilof trip would.
    Or vice versa.
    As long as people are aware of their needs and avoid wasting to the best of their ability it's all good.
    BINGO!! Tell that to dip**** above...

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