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Thread: Tier II Shakedown

  1. #1
    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Default Tier II Shakedown

    So, what are the community results under the new Tier II regs? I can't imagine that the income question will survive in its current form for another year, but given what we have, how did people fare?

    My wife and I both got them, as I was finishing grad school and we just slid in under the wire. My sister qualified as well, as she has been going through cancer treatment full time and not working.

    Of the rest of my family over the income limit, my mother drew a Tier II tag out of the remaining permits, but my brother, his wife, and my father did not. (I wonder how many of them went to a draw?)

    The biggest eye opener to me is that my close friend qualified for a Tier II permit, and he has never hunted there before. He has used meat from there for 4 years (we were roommates and I shared the wealth), and he fished and berry picked up there last year and thus scored some points under the gathering food question, but he's never hunted caribou. Screwy system we have, to say the least.

    How about the rest of you?
    Last edited by Brian M; 07-14-2007 at 00:00.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian M View Post
    ......My wife and I both got them, as I was finishing grad school and we just slid in under the wire. My sister qualified as well, as she has been going through cancer treatment full time and not working.

    Of the rest of my family over the income limit, my mother drew a Tierr II tag out of the remaining permits, but my brother, his wife, and my father did not. (I wonder how many of them went to a draw?)....
    Before today I guessed that many of the permits would go to the draw. I think I was wrong. Of all the people I know of that applied and were over the income cap, none drew. The income question clearly changed the dynamics of the draw.

    I think there were lots of people in your situation or Ken Mannings (retired) who scored this year, and fewer were left for the draw.

    It will be interesting, also, to learn how many folks applied in the second application period. I didn't think many did, but I could have been very wrong.

  3. #3
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    Default nothing

    They must have used the income question as I am over the limit and nada. But last year I did get to hunt. Who knows about next year. I never count on this one due to the politics but nothing would surprise me at this point.
    “I come home with an honestly earned feeling that something good has taken place. It makes no difference whether I got anything, it has to do with how the day was spent. “ Fred Bear

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    Member Kurt S's Avatar
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    Brian

    My wife drew one and we are well over the limit. My son who is under the limit and on his own also drew one. I, nor my other son drew one. Like you, I will be interested to know what the break down is. I'm guessing they went with around 5000 permits this year. I don't think, considering the one year they doled out 2000 permits and Anchorage/palmer got somewhere around 1400, that there are more than 600 in the Unit that put in for them. Remember, they can get 2 per person on a federal permit and only 2 per household on a state subby. They can't do both!
    But I'm just guessing here.

    Kurt

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt S View Post
    ....I'm guessing they went with around 5000 permits this year. I don't think, considering the one year they doled out 2000 permits and Anchorage/palmer got somewhere around 1400, that there are more than 600 in the Unit that put in for them.....
    That's good reasoning. I'm leaning toward agreeing on the 5,000 number, too. Maybe even less. From the early talk on this thread, it appears that there are fewer permits this year than last (or lots of lower income folks saw their opportunity......)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian M View Post
    So, what are the community results under the new Tier II regs? I can't imagine that the income question will survive in its current form for another year, but given what we have, how did people fare?

    My wife and I both got them, as I was finishing grad school and we just slid in under the wire. My sister qualified as well, as she has been going through cancer treatment full time and not working.

    How about the rest of you?
    Brian, I don't mean to pick on you, but so many of these threads usually end up about choices, so...

    I just finished up grad school as well. Engineering. Difference: I continued to work full time and don't qualify for the Tier II. It took me 4 years to finish my Masters because I could only take a couple of classes a semester while I worked full time, except when I done my thesis, then I just did my thesis and worked full time.

    Guess life is about choices. I'm happy with mine. I didn't even apply for Tier II hunt because of the income cap.

  7. #7

    Default Tier II

    If you look at the Draw and Tier II downloads, you will see that out of 6948 applicants for TC566, only 3000 will get permits. If you look at the list of applicants who were awarded a permit, you will see that individuals in Juneau, Haines, Kodiak, Aniak, Sitka, and several other places that I did not take the time to look up on the map were awarded a permit.

  8. #8
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    Now let's see what the harvest percentage comes out at.

    I think it has averaged about 65% to 78%. I'll bet this year it's much lower, and combined with the lower number awarded, the herd may be hit very lightly this year.....
    Here are last year's stats:

    Total Permits – 5496
    Reported – 5409
    Hunted – 4267
    Did Not Hunt - 1142
    Percentage Hunted – 78%
    Male Killed – 1815
    Female Killed – 685
    Total Killed – 2500
    Success Rate of Total Permits – 45%
    Success Rate for Those Who Hunted – 59%

  9. #9
    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPhillips View Post
    Brian, I don't mean to pick on you, but so many of these threads usually end up about choices, so...

    I just finished up grad school as well. Engineering. Difference: I continued to work full time and don't qualify for the Tier II. It took me 4 years to finish my Masters because I could only take a couple of classes a semester while I worked full time, except when I done my thesis, then I just did my thesis and worked full time.

    Guess life is about choices. I'm happy with mine. I didn't even apply for Tier II hunt because of the income cap.
    Yep, life is about choices. That's why it took me 7 years to do my undergrad degree in biology, because I worked 3 jobs while going to school (4 counting my summer commercial fishing). The way that my Masters in Education program worked out, it was literally impossible to work unless I wanted to forgo any sleep and destroy my marriage. I taught in the high school from 6:30-3:00 every day and then went to night classes every night from 4-9:00. The program is set up to enable students to get their master's degree and state certification in a year instead of two. There was no option to draw it out over multiple years. I could have worked one day a week, but my marriage is more important to me than that. I worked all summer before starting the program as a commercial fisherman so that I could help support my wife and I, but that income was under my 2005 tax year, not the 2006 year that was considered for this year's Tier II application.

    I'm happy with my choice as well, and will be happy to put some caribou in the freezer, as last year's Tier II caribou is basically gone.

  10. #10
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by talkeetnakid View Post
    If you look at the Draw and Tier II downloads, you will see that out of 6948 applicants for TC566, only 3000 will get permits....
    Yup. Down from 5500 last year.

    ...If you look at the list of applicants who were awarded a permit, you will see that individuals in Juneau, Haines, Kodiak, Aniak, Sitka, and several other places that I did not take the time to look up on the map were awarded a permit.
    Yup.

    By community:

    AKIACHAK – 2
    ANCHOR POINT – 10
    ANCHORAGE – 709
    ANIAK – 2
    BIG LAKE – 60
    CANTWELL – 29
    CHICKALOON – 3
    CHITINA – 3
    CHUGIAK – 97
    CLAM GULCH – 1
    COOPER LANDING – 2
    COPPER CENTER – 57
    CORDOVA – 3
    DELTA JCT – 56
    DENALI PARK – 2
    EAGLE RIVER – 139
    FAIRBANKS – 123
    FORT RICHARDSON – 3
    FORT WAINWRIGHT – 2
    FRITZ CREEK – 1
    GAKONA – 26
    GIRDWOOD – 6
    GLENNALLEN – 101
    HAINES – 5
    HEALY – 3
    HOMER – 13
    HOPE – 1
    HOUSTON – 12
    JUNEAU – 2
    KALSKAG – 3
    KASILOF – 13
    KENAI – 21
    KETCHIKAN – 1
    KODIAK – 3
    MENTASTA LAKE – 2
    MOOSE PASS – 3
    NANWALEK – 1
    NAPASKIAK – 1
    NENANA – 6
    NIKISKI – 9
    NIKOLAEVSK – 2
    NINILCHIK – 21
    NORTH POLE – 43
    PALMER – 358
    SALSHA – 10
    SELDOVIA – 1
    SEWARD – 12
    SITKA – 1
    SKAGWAY – 2
    SLANA – 6
    SOLDOTNA – 55
    STERLING – 20
    SUTTON – 58
    TALKEETNA – 35
    TOK – 3
    TRAPPER CREEK – 12
    TWO RIVERS – 3
    VALDEZ – 36
    WASILLA – 713
    WILLOW - 73

  11. #11
    Member broncoformudv's Avatar
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    My wife and I both got permits and we are well under the income limit. I am happy about it since this is the first time I have had a tag for unit 13 since they had the registration permits in the 90's. I did get my first caribou with a unit 13 draw tag back in the 80's and it seemed back then everyone was happy with the system. Maybe I was just young and did not notice everything going on outside my circle?

    I doubt the system will ever make people happy with whatever method they decide on for handing out permits.

    But I do not understand the thinking that you should have grown up hunting in that unit to get a permit to hunt it.

  12. #12
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    A friend applied during the second go around and got one.
    Mark-Thanks for the community breakdown. Would also like to see the breakdown between the two application periods, but doubt those numbers exist.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by mod elan View Post
    ....Mark-Thanks for the community breakdown....
    My pleasure!

    ....Would also like to see the breakdown between the two application periods, but doubt those numbers exist.
    Yeah, I doubt the second application numbers will ever be available.

    I suppose extrapolating the numbers will give us an approximate number of those who applied during that period........

  14. #14

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    At this point, does anyone know how many were awarded to qualified individuals and how many were awarded to the draw? What was the actual number of applicants that received points for the application and how many got a zero? A friends daughter received her first Nelchina permit on her first time submitting an application. Granted she was on her own for the first time since she was born, met the income criteria and undoubtably scored points for having ate caribou in the past. Probably lots of newbies will be in the field this year. Perhaps this is the way it should be. Good to see the younger crowd getting introduced to caribou hunting. Sad to see that they will be disenfranchised though as they prosper. They will get a taste of the good life and then be denied participation of a hunt they enjoy, result will be more disillusioned and dis-satisfied hunters to take the place of their elders. I am not complaining, as I am not negatively affected by the new methods of selection for the priveledged few. I can say that I am very satisfied by seeing such a diverse array of communities represented in the winners corner. I would very much hated to see all the permits going to the locals based on their zip codes.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akres View Post
    At this point, does anyone know how many were awarded to qualified individuals and how many were awarded to the draw?...
    Nope.

    ....A friends daughter received her first Nelchina permit on her first time submitting an application. Granted she was on her own for the first time since she was born, met the income criteria and undoubtably scored points for having ate caribou in the past....
    My daughter is in a similar boat. She's on her own, earns little money, and qualifies under the income cap.

    She never would have applied. I applied for her, after consultation with her. She was interested in going. She's won TC566 permits in the past and has hunted.

    ....Probably lots of newbies will be in the field this year....
    I'm thinking they won't get far into the field unless brought there by veterans, like me bringing my daughter......

    ...Perhaps this is the way it should be....
    I don't think so.

    I think the games are tired, even though I've played the game to my benefit quite successfully. It's way past time to put the Nelchina caribou hunt to a general draw.

    .....Good to see the younger crowd getting introduced to caribou hunting....
    This has nothing to do with age or wealth.

    If I was retired, I'd qualify (despite my overall wealth, comfort, etc).

    ....Sad to see that they will be disenfranchised though as they prosper. They will get a taste of the good life and then be denied participation of a hunt they enjoy, result will be more disillusioned and dis-satisfied hunters to take the place of their elders.....
    That's what this hunt is all about; those who have benefited for decades not letting go.

    ....I can say that I am very satisfied by seeing such a diverse array of communities represented in the winners corner.....
    Me, too, but not under these circumstances.

    A general draw would result in a similar array of opportunity without the BS.

    (Well, considering the fact that even the general draw "draws" BS, perhaps that's a qualified statement...........)

    ...I would very much hated to see all the permits going to the locals based on their zip codes.
    In accordance with McDowell, that's not going to happen anyway.......

  16. #16
    Member crossfoxAK's Avatar
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    i was lucky to draw one, didn't get anything else though, i wish i would have put my wife in now , congrats to everyone that drew

  17. #17
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    Published in the Fairbanks Daily News-Miner on 07 July:

    ....The state is in the process of filing a response to Athna’s request for an injunction to halt the distribution of Tier II Nelchina subsistence permits, said Saxby. The state has until Thursday to file its response.....
    There is a move that might halt the hunt. The Thursday the article referred to was 12 July.

    A ruling on the injunction should come any time.........

  18. #18
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    Unhappy

    We have got to get rid of that income question. Contrary to F and G it is a single limiting question. Any resident of the state, no matter how long they have lived here, where they grew up, where they live now as long as they earn under the limit gets a permit before all the long time residents who earn over the limit. As I understand it someone who grew up in another country would get a permit before a lifelong Alaskan resident who spent his whole life building this state. That sucks. They should give points for income just like they do for years of residency so its not a single limiting question.
    “I come home with an honestly earned feeling that something good has taken place. It makes no difference whether I got anything, it has to do with how the day was spent. “ Fred Bear

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sollybug View Post
    We have got to get rid of that income question.......
    I'm sure it will be gone soon. This is from the Supreme Court's Manning decisison, which was rendered on 06 July, several months after the Boards changes:

    ....Manning argues that these criteria are not narrowly tailored because criteria
    based on income would be a more accurate measure of dependence on subsistence
    hunting. The Board rejected using income as a criterion after serious consideration.43 The primary difficulty with an income classification is that there is evidence in the record
    that in rural areas members of wealthier households are often the primary subsistence
    hunters. They share their harvest with poorer members of the community who are
    unable to hunt for themselves but who depend on the game to meet their basic necessities
    of life.44 Therefore, income criteria would not necessarily correspond to the neediness
    of the end-consumer of the meat, and income-based classifications would not necessarily
    be more narrowly tailored than the food and gas criteria for achieving the State’s
    purposes. Moreover, income-based criteria would involve costly and time-consuming
    evaluation of individual financial data for thousands of Alaskans.45 To most precisely
    measure an applicant’s ability to pay for store-bought food, the Board would have to take
    into account not just the applicant’s taxable income, but other measures of wealth and
    net worth in a complicated calculation similar to college financial aid determinations or
    individualized child support awards under Alaska Civil Rule 90.3. We conclude that the food and gas criteria in 5 AAC 92.070(b)(2) and (3)
    are narrowly tailored and “designed for the least possible infringement on article VIII’s
    open access values.”46 They therefore survive constitutional review even if subjected to
    demanding scrutiny
    .....
    From what I've read, the Ahtna suit currently beginning challenges the income question and scoring on these precise grounds. They've obviously even requested that this year's permits not be issued. And, unlike Mr. Manning and his 2002 suit, Ahtna has money, legal representation, power, and influence.

    My daughter and I have already planned a date for her hunt, but I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't happen..........

  20. #20
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    Nope,didn't get one.The state thinks I'm a rich,life long Alaskan,single father of two with a cabin in the middle of the basin!But..... three friends,all of whom havn't been in the state more then fifteen years got them.One of those friends actually got two tags(wife).Man I'm going to get somemore awesome pics of caribou around the cabin this fall<puke>!

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