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Thread: Nitrogen absorption...

  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by shayno View Post
    Drinking to much and lack of sleep the night before can mask symptoms/signs... So there's that.lol
    Add to that your physical conditioning (or lack thereof) and a myriad of factors that can affect recognizing DCS symptoms.

    That is why we adhere to dive tables to tell us if we're in DCS. Our bodies are all different so the symptoms are different in type and severity. Add in the mental side of the equation ("ah, it must've been last night's partying") and you make it even less reliable. Using physics (dive tables) removes as much of the "human" factors as possible.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheeser View Post
    Add to that your physical conditioning (or lack thereof) and a myriad of factors that can affect recognizing DCS symptoms.

    That is why we adhere to dive tables to tell us if we're in DCS. Our bodies are all different so the symptoms are different in type and severity. Add in the mental side of the equation ("ah, it must've been last night's partying") and you make it even less reliable. Using physics (dive tables) removes as much of the "human" factors as possible.
    What???

    If you would like to talk about tables and schedules, treatment tables, sickness, and all that stuff you are more than welcome to come hang out and talk diving. Because I'm reading that your letting a table tell you if your bent... I would be happy to go over the navy dive manual in detail with you. I been there done that a time or two.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by shayno View Post
    What???

    If you would like to talk about tables and schedules, treatment tables, sickness, and all that stuff you are more than welcome to come hang out and talk diving. Because I'm reading that your letting a table tell you if your bent... I would be happy to go over the navy dive manual in detail with you. I been there done that a time or two.

    What is your "what" referring to?

    If you don't use dive tables to determine your nitrogen absorption, what do you use?

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheeser View Post
    What is your "what" referring to?

    If you don't use dive tables to determine your nitrogen absorption, what do you use?
    Let's start over. What does DCS mean?

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by shayno View Post
    Let's start over. What does DCS mean?

    You don't know what DCS is???

    I'd still like to hear how you determine your nitrogen absorption since you seemed to scoff at using dive tables. Please, fill me in on your technique.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheeser View Post
    You don't know what DCS is???

    I'd still like to hear how you determine your nitrogen absorption since you seemed to scoff at using dive tables. Please, fill me in on your technique.
    I wouldn't ask if I knee what it was. I'm trying to make sure were on the same page.
    I didn't scoff at tables, you seem to use them differently than we do.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheeser View Post
    You don't know what DCS is???

    I'd still like to hear how you determine your nitrogen absorption since you seemed to scoff at using dive tables. Please, fill me in on your technique.
    And I can tell you no commercial diver has ever sat around and said "let's figure out our nitrogen absorption rate"... We simply look at tables, figure what the depth/job entail, and plan accordingly. If a diver runs deeper or longer than expected, we bump tables. If a diver runs past no-d limits, we run them in a surface decompression 02 or in water. It really is that simple. When a diver gets on deck and gets his gear off we perform a quick Nero exam which consists of a couple questions and monitoring them for a time period. Usually, if someone says my toe hurts for example after a dive, we run them on a treatment table. If the pain goes away with pressure, there COULD BE a issue. However, in the professional community in alaska, it's been a while since there was a life threatening decompression related issue.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by shayno View Post
    And I can tell you no commercial diver has ever sat around and said "let's figure out our nitrogen absorption rate"... We simply look at tables, figure what the depth/job entail, and plan accordingly. If a diver runs deeper or longer than expected, we bump tables. If a diver runs past no-d limits, we run them in a surface decompression 02 or in water. It really is that simple. When a diver gets on deck and gets his gear off we perform a quick Nero exam which consists of a couple questions and monitoring them for a time period. Usually, if someone says my toe hurts for example after a dive, we run them on a treatment table. If the pain goes away with pressure, there COULD BE a issue. However, in the professional community in alaska, it's been a while since there was a life threatening decompression related issue.

    DCS is the acronym for decompression sickness.

    So you say you don't know any commercial diver who sat around and said "lets figure out our nitrogen absorption rate" and then you admit that's exactly what you do by looking at the tables and planning accordingly. Because that's exactly what those tables tell you - your nitrogen absorption rate.

    So you rely on physics (dive tables) to determine your nitrogen absorption rate just like every other diver.

    But, in regards to your first reply where you state you dove for 8 hours and weren't in DCS, that is 100% false. If you work those tables you referred to above you'll quickly see you were in DCS. Again, you can't change physics.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheeser View Post
    DCS is the acronym for decompression sickness.

    So you say you don't know any commercial diver who sat around and said "lets figure out our nitrogen absorption rate" and then you admit that's exactly what you do by looking at the tables and planning accordingly. Because that's exactly what those tables tell you - your nitrogen absorption rate.

    So you rely on physics (dive tables) to determine your nitrogen absorption rate just like every other diver.

    But, in regards to your first reply where you state you dove for 8 hours and weren't in DCS, that is 100% false. If you work those tables you referred to above you'll quickly see you were in DCS. Again, you can't change physics.
    Oh boy... dude, you can think what you want and claim what you want, but you are simply wrong.
    If you would like to discuss diving like big boys your welcome to come over and I'll invite a hyperbaric expert (a friend) over and we can look at a navy dive manual and you might just learn a thing or two. Did you go to a navy dive school or commercial school? Please tell me you have more training besides a weekend class in a swimming pool...

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by shayno View Post
    Oh boy... dude, you can think what you want and claim what you want, but you are simply wrong.
    If you would like to discuss diving like big boys your welcome to come over and I'll invite a hyperbaric expert (a friend) over and we can look at a navy dive manual and you might just learn a thing or two. Did you go to a navy dive school or commercial school? Please tell me you have more training besides a weekend class in a swimming pool...

    "Big boys"? What, is this a kindergarten playground?

    I'm a PADI certified MSDT instructor with so many specialty instructor c-cards I've lost count. I've certified over 200 divers and I stopped counting my dives years ago when I crossed the 3000 dive mark.

    You, on the other hand, didn't know what DCS was when every student has to know that before getting certified. You also claim you don't bother with planning nitrogen absorption then state you use tables, not realizing that what you're doing is checking your dive profile's nitrogen absorption!!! You also claim you dove 8 hours without being in DCS when physics (i.e. dive tables which you apparently use but don't know why) tells us you were in DCS, you simply didn't realize it or you just didn't want to accept it.

    Why would I meet with you to discuss Navy dive tables when you've already admitted you don't have a clue what they're for? I have my own set of tables and they back up everything I've stated.

    What, exactly, are you disputing about what I've stated? Please be specific.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheeser View Post
    "Big boys"? What, is this a kindergarten playground?

    I'm a PADI certified MSDT instructor with so many specialty instructor c-cards I've lost count. I've certified over 200 divers and I stopped counting my dives years ago when I crossed the 3000 dive mark.

    You, on the other hand, didn't know what DCS was when every student has to know that before getting certified. You also claim you don't bother with planning nitrogen absorption then state you use tables, not realizing that what you're doing is checking your dive profile's nitrogen absorption!!! You also claim you dove 8 hours without being in DCS when physics (i.e. dive tables which you apparently use but don't know why) tells us you were in DCS, you simply didn't realize it or you just didn't want to accept it.

    Why would I meet with you to discuss Navy dive tables when you've already admitted you don't have a clue what they're for? I have my own set of tables and they back up everything I've stated.

    What, exactly, are you disputing about what I've stated? Please be specific.
    Well I don't know what any of that padi lingo is. While you were out getting those fancy cards I've been underwater working and getting paid for it...
    When was the last time a half-million-dollar a day rig called up s scuba guy with all those "speciality instructor c-cards" and said please come help and dive on our rig? Oh yea never. You know why? Because of guys like me in the big leagues. Yes, to me you are kindergarten.
    So be if your gonna 've offended by this, be offended In that a career commercial diver apparently knows nothing about decompression, yet has managed to accomplish more in 1 job diving than you will ever scuba diving.

    I'm disputing you claiming I was bent after 8 hours. Is that specific enough? And if you truly believe that, I encourage you to buy a badge, tape it on your shirt, and go around to all these actual diving jobs and tell them they are bent according to you. Tell me how that goes for you.

  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by shayno View Post
    Well I don't know what any of that padi lingo is. While you were out getting those fancy cards I've been underwater working and getting paid for it...
    When was the last time a half-million-dollar a day rig called up s scuba guy with all those "speciality instructor c-cards" and said please come help and dive on our rig? Oh yea never. You know why? Because of guys like me in the big leagues. Yes, to me you are kindergarten.
    So be if your gonna 've offended by this, be offended In that a career commercial diver apparently knows nothing about decompression, yet has managed to accomplish more in 1 job diving than you will ever scuba diving.

    I'm disputing you claiming I was bent after 8 hours. Is that specific enough? And if you truly believe that, I encourage you to buy a badge, tape it on your shirt, and go around to all these actual diving jobs and tell them they are bent according to you. Tell me how that goes for you.

    Please state where I showed any offense over anything in this thread in any way. Please, cite the reply that caused you to make that assumption.

    I didn't say you beyond NDL and in DCS. The Navy dive tables say you were beyond NDL and in DCS.

    You keep saying you weren't past NDL and in DCS yet you provide zero proof. Please show everyone the dive table you used that indicates you were not past NDL after 8 hours of diving. Please show any proof of what you are claiming.

    Relying on symptoms to tell you if you're past NDL and experiencing DCS is what you teach divers NOT to do. Why? Because symptoms may or may not be present and/or recognized. You can "think" you're ok, but that means nothing. Literally nothing. Why? Because you can't change physics.

    Everything I have stated is 100% verifiable via Navy dive tables and medical studies. Attached is the Navy dive table so everyone can see it is Navy data I am citing, not make-believe stuff out of nowhere. The top row is depth. Even if we take the minimum depth of 40' (10m), we go down and can see you reach NDL after 200 minutes, or 3 hours 20 minutes. Not "maybe" you're past NDL. You are definitely past NDL.

    Please, show any proof of what you're stating. Lets see that dive table you use that shows you weren't past NDL after 8 hours of diving.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  13. #33

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    Cheeser
    So do the pilots flying from sea level to the Ruth Glacier in non-pressurized aircraft also get DCS? The have full Nitrogen saturation at seal level but have reduced the atmospheric pressure so they will be off gassing Nitrogen. If PADI did not teach you the 1/2 pressure reduction rule you should go get your money back, they ripped you off. It is a important bit of information especially from a historic viewpoint.
    Throwing out the acronym DCS is very simple, understanding what is happening is very complex. If you are trolling be carefull it is very deep water and your boat of knowledge seems to be limited to the shallow stuff. If you really want to have a discussion about the effects of inert gas absorption, micro bubble formation, and ways to mitigate tissue damage. It sounds like some of the people here could help.
    DENNY

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by boneguy View Post
    Cheeser
    So do the pilots flying from sea level to the Ruth Glacier in non-pressurized aircraft also get DCS? The have full Nitrogen saturation at seal level but have reduced the atmospheric pressure so they will be off gassing Nitrogen. If PADI did not teach you the 1/2 pressure reduction rule you should go get your money back, they ripped you off. It is a important bit of information especially from a historic viewpoint.
    Throwing out the acronym DCS is very simple, understanding what is happening is very complex. If you are trolling be carefull it is very deep water and your boat of knowledge seems to be limited to the shallow stuff. If you really want to have a discussion about the effects of inert gas absorption, micro bubble formation, and ways to mitigate tissue damage. It sounds like some of the people here could help.
    DENNY
    I'm not a pilot so you'd have to ask someone trained in aviation. I do know that our entire atmosphere, all 300 or so vertical miles of it, is 1 atmosphere. 1 atmosphere underwater is 10 meters. So trying to link it with diving is quite the stretch. If you have information addressing your question by an aviation person, please post the link as I'm always interested in learning new things.

    I'll request the same from you as I did from the other fellow - post a link with that 1/2 pressure reduction rule. I've searched quite a bit for it and have found nothing.

    Seeing as I've provided the Navy dive tables to prove what I've stated and no one challenging what I've said, including you, have provided anything, I'd say its rather clear that I'm not the one doing the trolling.

    Please, post links backing up what you're stating so everyone can learn.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheeser View Post
    I'm not a pilot so you'd have to ask someone trained in aviation. I do know that our entire atmosphere, all 300 or so vertical miles of it, is 1 atmosphere. 1 atmosphere underwater is 10 meters. So trying to link it with diving is quite the stretch. If you have information addressing your question by an aviation person, please post the link as I'm always interested in learning new things.

    I'll request the same from you as I did from the other fellow - post a link with that 1/2 pressure reduction rule. I've searched quite a bit for it and have found nothing.

    Seeing as I've provided the Navy dive tables to prove what I've stated and no one challenging what I've said, including you, have provided anything, I'd say its rather clear that I'm not the one doing the trolling.

    Please, post links backing up what you're stating so everyone can learn.
    Hey, Cheeser, I-atmosphere does NOT hold out for 18,000 feet! If that were true, the airlines wouldn't have to pressurize their cabins above six thousand feet; nor would all pilots be required to use oxygen above 12,000 ft. I would note that PADI instruction was, and maybe still is, a little shy on the direct and indirect effects of pressure.


  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly 2 View Post
    Hey, Cheeser, I-atmosphere does NOT hold out for 18,000 feet! If that were true, the airlines wouldn't have to pressurize their cabins above six thousand feet; nor would all pilots be required to use oxygen above 12,000 ft. I would note that PADI instruction was, and maybe still is, a little shy on the direct and indirect effects of pressure.

    Please cite where I discussed oxygen levels at altitude. Yeah, I didn't. Your entire comment above is about something that no one said in this entire thread.

    My comment was about atmospheric pressure and everything I stated is 100% correct. Our entire atmosphere, from sea level to 300 miles up, is referred to as 1 atmosphere of pressure. A fellow named Evangelista Torricelli discovered that back in the 1600's so that knowledge has been around for a long, long time.

    Please re-read my reply and address any points I actually made that you're having issues with.

  17. #37

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    Cheeser
    It is all about the pressure. It does not matter if you are in the water or not. The physics are the same for pilots as for divers. Air Force jet training in tweets (small trainer jets) can go to 18,000 Ft (.5 atmosphere buy the way) without prebreathing O2 to prevent the bends. Yes pilots get the bends just like divers. So following your logic anytime you lower the pressure you are in DCS in or out of the water.

    Part of the issue may be your terminology, How do you define decompression mode? Are you saying once you reach the no decompression limit you start to form bubbles while you stay at that depth?

    DENNY

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by boneguy View Post
    Cheeser
    It is all about the pressure. It does not matter if you are in the water or not. The physics are the same for pilots as for divers. Air Force jet training in tweets (small trainer jets) can go to 18,000 Ft (.5 atmosphere buy the way) without prebreathing O2 to prevent the bends. Yes pilots get the bends just like divers. So following your logic anytime you lower the pressure you are in DCS in or out of the water.

    Part of the issue may be your terminology, How do you define decompression mode? Are you saying once you reach the no decompression limit you start to form bubbles while you stay at that depth?

    DENNY
    Thanks for the aviation info. That makes sense. I've heard of the Armstrong effect where as you go higher the pressure gets so low water boils at body temperature. It's interesting there is an aviation version of DCS.

    If you stay at depth you're fine as your body has already equalized to that pressure. It's changing pressure too fast and releasing that dissolved nitrogen from your blood that's the issue. NDL means the pressure difference going directly to the surface has been shown (Navy dive tables) to cause DCS. The pressure difference causes the body to want to equalize as fast as possible so it creates microbubbles. In reality any return to the surface creates microbubbles but going into NDL means more and bigger bubbles. That's why we teach a 3 minute safety stop for every dive. It gives the body time time to off-gas at an intermediary pressure so the off-gassing is reduced when you return to the surface.

  19. #39

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    I'm still waiting for someone to post a link to this "1/2 atm reduction rule" for scuba divers a couple people have referred to. I have yet to find any reference to it anywhere on the interweb. And if it really exists I'd definitely like to read about it.
    And I am still waiting for the link to the Navy dive table showing you can dive for 8 hours without going past NDL.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheeser View Post
    And I am still waiting
    That's a long safety stop!

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