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Thread: Is there anyone out there that can explain what the outcome was &

  1. #1
    Sponsor protaxidermy's Avatar
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    Default Is there anyone out there that can explain what the outcome was &

    How it will affect Waters in Alaska in reguards to Airboats & Hover crafts.

    I am refering to the Yukon Charile incident

    I know the boat owner won his case against the government ,but does that decision carry over to other rivers that start & or end on state lands.

    I have asked a few Fish & wildlife guys & they at me like I am talking about a plague or something.

    Please refer me to someone that has this info.

    I don't want to get In a jam because I could not find the right answer.

    In the same time , if we can legaly use these waterways with our airboats or Hover crafts, I know several folks that will

    RJ Simington
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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protaxidermy View Post
    How it will affect Waters in Alaska in reguards to Airboats & Hover crafts.

    I am refering to the Yukon Charile incident

    I know the boat owner won his case against the government ,but does that decision carry over to other rivers that start & or end on state lands.

    I have asked a few Fish & wildlife guys & they at me like I am talking about a plague or something.

    Please refer me to someone that has this info.

    I don't want to get In a jam because I could not find the right answer.

    In the same time , if we can legaly use these waterways with our airboats or Hover crafts, I know several folks that will

    RJ Simington
    907 322 0936
    Depends on your view of "won". The SCOTUS did not decide that it is lawful to use a hovercraft in the park, if that's what you're looking for. The 9th circuit court's decision was vacated by the SCOTUS and remanded back to the lower courts (https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinion...-1209_kifl.pdf). In a sense that means it's back, perhaps not all the way to square one, but the situation is far from settled. I doubt the NPS has changed their view regarding use of hovercraft in the parks.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    Depends on your view of "won". The SCOTUS did not decide that it is lawful to use a hovercraft in the park, if that's what you're looking for. The 9th circuit court's decision was vacated by the SCOTUS and remanded back to the lower courts (https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinion...-1209_kifl.pdf). In a sense that means it's back, perhaps not all the way to square one, but the situation is far from settled. I doubt the NPS has changed their view regarding use of hovercraft in the parks.
    Another way to say that is SCOTUS said the 9th circuit was wrong (yet again) in their decision and needed to make the correct judgement next time by following the instructions that SCOTUS provided in their decision. It's not over but the 9th circuit has been told what and how to judge this case since they got it wrong (shocking) to begin with.
    "Now you know, and knowing is half the battle." - G.I. Joe

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patsfan54 View Post
    Another way to say that is SCOTUS said the 9th circuit was wrong (yet again) in their decision and needed to make the correct judgement next time by following the instructions that SCOTUS provided in their decision. It's not over but the 9th circuit has been told what and how to judge this case since they got it wrong (shocking) to begin with.
    A person can spin it and fluff it any way which makes him feel good, but to state that "the 9th circuit has been told what and how to judge this case", the next time round, is simply not factual. The SCOTUS only disagreed with the Ninth Circuit's interpretation of Section 103(c) of ANILCA, and that one facet alone does not determine the entirety of the legal question. They didn't reach any of the other legal facets of the case, stating only that they should have been addresses by the lower courts. In the meantime, nothing has changed on the ground, nor is it likely to, unless someone wants to take another run at a another legal challenge.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    The SCOTUS only disagreed with the Ninth Circuit's interpretation of Section 103(c) of ANILCA
    When SCOTUS sent the case back down to the lower courts they instructed them on what and how to judge the case. Like you said a person can spin and fluff it any way. When the highest court in the land tells you that you got it wrong and how to get it right that's the way it is, without the spin and fluff.
    "Now you know, and knowing is half the battle." - G.I. Joe

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patsfan54 View Post
    When SCOTUS sent the case back down to the lower courts they instructed them on what and how to judge the case.
    I bow to your superior legal knowledge. Admittedly, I'm just a novice at these things. To further my understanding, please point out where in their opinion (previously linked) the SCOTUS "instructed" the lower courts, and to which specific aspects of the plaintiff's arguments those instructions are applicable. I've read the courts opinion several times over, and I'm just not seeing the "instruction" you're referring to (?).
    I've also read the analyses of some others (for example, see link below) who certainly have more knowledge than do I, and their analyses seems reasonable. Do you disagree? If so, can you explain, please, specifically where you believe we're incorrect in our understanding, and what, in your assessment, the effect is to the current legal situation on the ground? Thank you.
    http://www.scotusblog.com/2016/03/op...-nothing-more/
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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    I've never claimed to have superior legal knowledge, nor even a firm grasp on it. What I do know is that every SCOTUS decision is an instruction to lower courts for deciding what and how to make their decisions. The very purpose of the supreme court is to make decisions based up on the law and instruct all lower courts how they are to follow the law, it's why supreme court decisions are cited daily in court cases around this country. I know you just want to argue about any and everything, but the fact is that the supreme court vacated the ruling of the 9th circuit...as you yourself pointed out earlier in this thread.
    "Now you know, and knowing is half the battle." - G.I. Joe

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    I recommend reading this again, especially the last 7 or so paragraphs: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinion...-1209_kifl.pdf

    Then, read this: http://www.scotusblog.com/2016/03/op...-nothing-more/

    Then go back to the last 7 paragraphs again.... Repeat as necessary.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It
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    Iof,

    Thanks for providing the links that you've already provided, again. Since we are sharing reading recommendations, I suggest you read the first paragraph of the blog you linked to by Todd, then re-read my posts.

    If you still think that SCOTUS didn't say the 9th circuit is wrong, then I don't know what to tell you.
    "Now you know, and knowing is half the battle." - G.I. Joe

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patsfan54 View Post
    Iof,

    Thanks for providing the links that you've already provided, again. Since we are sharing reading recommendations, I suggest you read the first paragraph of the blog you linked to by Todd, then re-read my posts.

    If you still think that SCOTUS didn't say the 9th circuit is wrong, then I don't know what to tell you.
    So, what's the intended point of your overall position here? It sounds like you want very much to be able to claim moral victory, to be able to say "yay, we won", by standing on nothing more than a grossly oversimplified notion, without really understanding, or even trying to understand what the SCOTUS decision really means, and why, for both the current situation on the ground, and for any future litigation.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It
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    Iof,
    I think I've been very clear on every post on this thread, SCOTUS said the 9th circuit was wrong in the decision they came to, and SCOTUS instructed the 9th circuit where they went wrong. You however have jumped all over the place making nonsensical statements and reposting the same links over and over again that support what I have said, that SCOTUS said the 9th circuit got it wrong.

    What I think about this case really doesn't matter, unless I buy a hovercraft and find hundreds of thousands of dollars and decide to spend years of my life to challenge this case. If some government agency wants to charge a guy with a crime for doing what Sturgeon did then that's fine, as it stands right now the highest court in the land has rejected the arguement charging Sturgeon with a crime by vacating the lower court ruling and remanding it back to the lower courts with instructions on how to interpret the case law since they did it WRONG, as in not right or incorrect.

    As I've said previously and will say again, SCOTUS said the 9th was wrong. It has nothing to do with spin, fluff, morals, oversimplification, or a blog by some guy named Todd.

    Feel free to pick apart any and everything I've said and the grammar I've used so you can get the last word, as I know you will. Being the internet police must be the most tiring of self-appointed jobs. Oh, and using the first blog you come across on google as your main point of reference...
    "Now you know, and knowing is half the battle." - G.I. Joe

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protaxidermy View Post
    Please refer me to someone that has this info.
    https://www.nps.gov/yuch/learn/news/...prohibited.htm
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
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    Quote Originally Posted by protaxidermy View Post
    How it will affect Waters in Alaska in reguards to Airboats & Hover crafts.

    I am refering to the Yukon Charile incident

    I know the boat owner won his case against the government ,but does that decision carry over to other rivers that start & or end on state lands.

    I have asked a few Fish & wildlife guys & they at me like I am talking about a plague or something.

    Please refer me to someone that has this info.

    I don't want to get In a jam because I could not find the right answer.

    In the same time , if we can legaly use these waterways with our airboats or Hover crafts, I know several folks that will

    RJ Simington
    907 322 0936
    I dont wish to engage on a debate on this, but..... I dont believe the dust has completely settled on this issue yet.... even though the SC has made a decision.

    You could review the regs and see if those have changed, I have read them several times (not lately) and if the parkies wanted to get sticky I think some boats, particularly Sport Jet powered boats would exceed the allowable noise rating (its maybe 105 DB.... cant recall the exact number)

    In any case your question lumped all the waterways into one, and this is a National Park reg, not a state reg. So pertains to waterways that run through a nat park, like the YC.... And the parkies have gotten a little more friendly since this and Jim Wilde got rolled around in the mud a few years back..... Still I doubt they would ignore a hovercraft.... Which makes a absolutely no sense as it is a very low impact vehicle... but since when did the govmt start making sense...?
    “Nothing worth doing is easy”
    TR

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    The panel held that ANILCA section 103(c) did not limit the Park Service from applying the hovercraft ban...

    ...On remand from the United States Supreme Court, the panel again concluded that the federal government properly regulated hovercraft use on the Nation River in the Yukon-Charley preserve.


    http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastor...2/13-36165.pdf
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It
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    Back to SCOTUS, the 9th telling SCOTUS they don't know what they are talking about should go over well.
    "Now you know, and knowing is half the battle." - G.I. Joe

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