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Thread: Clarification on palmated spike/fork antlers. Know the law before you go.

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    Member highestview's Avatar
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    Default Clarification on palmated spike/fork antlers. Know the law before you go.

    Before the moose season really gets going, I'd like to quickly re-hash a contentious but massively misunderstood issue in moose hunting and give you the facts, including Alaska code which you may need to be able to reference. If you want to see the big, ugly version of this discussion, see this thread:

    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...t=legal+or+not

    In the event that you shoot a spike/fork moose that only has one or two legally defined points, Troopers are not justified to cite you and confiscate it no matter how 'palmed','palmated' or 'paddled' it is. There is an extremely pervasive myth that 'palmed', 'palmated' or 'paddled' antlers are automatically illegal under spike/fork regulation. An enormous amount of hunters and even many Troopers are under this false impression.

    For reference:
    Definition of "spike/fork antler" is 5 AAC 92.990.26(A)
    Definition of "point" or "tine" is 5 AAC 92.990.40
    No where in 5 AAC 92 or anywhere in Alaska Administrative Code can you find the words 'palm', 'palmated', 'palmation' or 'paddle' in reference to spike/fork antlers.

    So last year this moose was shot and wrongfully confiscated by a Trooper who was later overturned by his superiors but tragically, after the meat had been given to someone who didn't deserve it.

    764fa881f781119e8bf7014fd95948ea.jpg0279d92ac8522479ef357529c1cb8489.jpg

    Now it is still imperative on you to take extreme care in evaluating any moose for legality before pulling the trigger. So before you pull the trigger on a spike/fork, make sure you have actually gotten a detailed enough and thorough look at him and evaluated him against the applicable definition.

    That said, if you do shoot a moose with only 2 points and a Trooper attempts to confiscate it for being 'palmed' or 'palmated' inform him that those words are not found in the legal definitions anywhere. If he continues to confiscate it, inform him that you are going to challenge it and request that they not give the meat away. Ask for the Troopers supervisor info and attempt to make immediate contact with them. If you have the resources, you might ask your lawyer to contact the Trooper post as well. I don't know to what degree you can legally block them from giving the meat away, but I would make every effort to stop them from giving it away. the law is on your side and hopefully any LEO will listen and actually look up the definition if you can convince him to look into it. If they refuse to listen, do everything you can to keep them from giving it away.

    Be educated, be safe and hunt hard folks.
    Born in Alaska: The boundary lines have fallen for me in pleasant places; surely I have a delightful inheritance. Psalm 16:6

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    Member Dupont Spinner's Avatar
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    Print the above references and have them with you or at least at camp. Be nice, direct, firm and be Nice. Blowing up and yelling is going to get you know where. Also let them know about the forum and the previous years overturn on the same subject.

    Print the above picture.....

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    Another thing to note is the change this year, (a point protruding less, I say again less than 3 inches and begins LESS than 2" from the base isn't considered a brow.) it's in red letters in the new regs under the fork spike description.
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    IMG_7493.jpg also if it's got nubs under fur, it's not a legal bull under spike fork. Don't know if this pic will show up IMG_7493.jpg

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    Hoytguy...But is it considered a point???

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    Quote Originally Posted by brew_doggie View Post
    Hoytguy...But is it considered a point???
    That change is really unclear to me. From what I've heard, that is primarily oriented towards large moose which do not have enough brow tines, and sometimes they find a 'lamb tip' as it's called on the beam, not on the brow. So to be safe, don't count a point on the beam towards the brow tines of a big bull, and don't shoot a spike/fork that has 3 points.
    Born in Alaska: The boundary lines have fallen for me in pleasant places; surely I have a delightful inheritance. Psalm 16:6

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    Quote Originally Posted by highestview View Post
    Before the moose season really gets going, I'd like to quickly re-hash a contentious but massively misunderstood issue in moose hunting and give you the facts, including Alaska code which you may need to be able to reference. If you want to see the big, ugly version of this discussion, see this thread:

    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...t=legal+or+not

    In the event that you shoot a spike/fork moose that only has one or two legally defined points, Troopers are not justified to cite you and confiscate it no matter how 'palmed','palmated' or 'paddled' it is. There is an extremely pervasive myth that 'palmed', 'palmated' or 'paddled' antlers are automatically illegal under spike/fork regulation. An enormous amount of hunters and even many Troopers are under this false impression.

    For reference:
    Definition of "spike/fork antler" is 5 AAC 92.990.26(A)
    Definition of "point" or "tine" is 5 AAC 92.990.40
    No where in 5 AAC 92 or anywhere in Alaska Administrative Code can you find the words 'palm', 'palmated', 'palmation' or 'paddle' in reference to spike/fork antlers.

    So last year this moose was shot and wrongfully confiscated by a Trooper who was later overturned by his superiors but tragically, after the meat had been given to someone who didn't deserve it.

    764fa881f781119e8bf7014fd95948ea.jpg0279d92ac8522479ef357529c1cb8489.jpg

    Now it is still imperative on you to take extreme care in evaluating any moose for legality before pulling the trigger. So before you pull the trigger on a spike/fork, make sure you have actually gotten a detailed enough and thorough look at him and evaluated him against the applicable definition.

    That said, if you do shoot a moose with only 2 points and a Trooper attempts to confiscate it for being 'palmed' or 'palmated' inform him that those words are not found in the legal definitions anywhere. If he continues to confiscate it, inform him that you are going to challenge it and request that they not give the meat away. Ask for the Troopers supervisor info and attempt to make immediate contact with them. If you have the resources, you might ask your lawyer to contact the Trooper post as well. I don't know to what degree you can legally block them from giving the meat away, but I would make every effort to stop them from giving it away. the law is on your side and hopefully any LEO will listen and actually look up the definition if you can convince him to look into it. If they refuse to listen, do everything you can to keep them from giving it away.

    Be educated, be safe and hunt hard folks.
    I'm sorry, but this just p@#$%s me off. It's just wrong on so many levels that a trooper was able to wrongfully confiscate this gentlemen's meat and there was no consequence or attempt at retribution to the violated hunter. You would think that he would at bare minimum be awarded a cow tag or something to try to make it up to him. Thanks for the clarification.

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    Quote Originally Posted by highestview View Post
    That change is really unclear to me. From what I've heard, that is primarily oriented towards large moose which do not have enough brow tines, and sometimes they find a 'lamb tip' as it's called on the beam, not on the brow. So to be safe, don't count a point on the beam towards the brow tines of a big bull, and don't shoot a spike/fork that has 3 points.
    Isn't it still okay to shoot a spike/fork with 3 points on one side as long as the other side is a spike or fork?? All these interpretations are getting confusing!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMike View Post
    Isn't it still okay to shoot a spike/fork with 3 points on one side as long as the other side is a spike or fork?? All these interpretations are getting confusing!
    With brow tine or spike fork, yes. If either side has the proper brow tines, or only 2 points (legal fork) yes.
    Born in Alaska: The boundary lines have fallen for me in pleasant places; surely I have a delightful inheritance. Psalm 16:6

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    Quote Originally Posted by highestview View Post
    No where in 5 AAC 92 or anywhere in Alaska Administrative Code can you find the words 'palm', 'palmated', 'palmation' or 'paddle' in reference to spike/fork antlers.
    Administrative code is the final written law.....................however, on page 31 of the handy dandy, there is this statement, "Bulls with palmated antlers (paddles) seldom are legal under the "spike or fork" requirement."
    How does that play in to the definition of spike/fork?
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    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper View Post
    Administrative code is the final written law.....................however, on page 31 of the handy dandy, there is this statement, "Bulls with palmated antlers (paddles) seldom are legal under the "spike or fork" requirement."
    How does that play in to the definition of spike/fork?
    Notice how it says "seldom" and not "never".
    All that handy dandy wording is really for is to make hunters double nd triple check when eyeballing a palmated bull.
    If they did not intend for these small "palmated" bulls to ever be legal they would have said: "Bulls with palmated antlers (paddles) are ​never legal under the "spike or fork" requirement." Or something to that effect. But they did not word it that way!
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    I've posted this before but for those that haven't seen it.... Here's an example of a legally palmated bull under the spike fork regs.

    I think lol



    I am serious... and don't call me Shirley.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM2K7sV-K74

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    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper View Post
    Administrative code is the final written law.....................however, on page 31 of the handy dandy, there is this statement, "Bulls with palmated antlers (paddles) seldom are legal under the "spike or fork" requirement."
    How does that play in to the definition of spike/fork?
    The reason is that bulls that put on enough mass to be 'palmated' almost always grow that third point with it. In that sense, that advisory statement is true. Palmated bulls are seldom legal because they seldom have only 2 points.

    I don't get how so many people have taken that statement to mean that any 'palm' is illegal. Super quick logic exercise.
    If palmated bulls are seldom legal, then sometimes palmated bulls ARE legal. If palmated bulls sometimes ARE legal, then it being palmated can't be what makes them illegal.
    Born in Alaska: The boundary lines have fallen for me in pleasant places; surely I have a delightful inheritance. Psalm 16:6

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    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highestview View Post
    The reason is that bulls that put on enough mass to be 'palmated' almost always grow that third point with it. In that sense, that advisory statement is true. Palmated bulls are seldom legal because they seldom have only 2 points.

    I don't get how so many people have taken that statement to mean that any 'palm' is illegal. Super quick logic exercise.
    If palmated bulls are seldom legal, then sometimes palmated bulls ARE legal. If palmated bulls sometimes ARE legal, then it being palmated can't be what makes them illegal.
    Very well said sir!
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    legal fork.jpg

    I found this digging through old hunting pictures. This was another example of how spike/fork moose sometimes start to develop palm, even with additional stunted points (not legal points) and still be legal. This is a screenshot from the 'Is this moose legal?' DVD that F&G has put out there and the presenter is in the middle of explaining how this bull was indeed legal.

    Once again, getting a very good close look is extremely important. We passed on a forked bull once because he had some velvet scraped off and we couldn't tell if it was concealing a third point behind it. We only ended up having maybe 90-120 seconds to look at him so he got to walk. Take your time, take a long hard look from as many angles as the moose will let you see from. I'm also a believer that in antler restricted areas, a spotting scope is a mandatory tool for moose hunting. For counting brow tines, evaluating forked antlers and judging width, I don't know how you'd do it with only a pair of binoculars. Personally, my hands are too unsteady. I need that tripod mounted final look.
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    Born in Alaska: The boundary lines have fallen for me in pleasant places; surely I have a delightful inheritance. Psalm 16:6

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    I second the spotting scope as manditory. A few years ago some other hunters started shooting at a bull they thought was a fork. We had watched it before and saw it had 3 points on each side. Ithe took some time through the spotter to pick them out. These guys didn't even have binos they were just relying on rifle scopes. I don't think they got the moose. They were at least 500 yards shooting off hand. Couple of jackasses. Im never sure of a spike fork without my spotter and then a much closer first hand look.

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    Here is a good photo of a fork. This one can be found at the Palmer Fish and Game office behind the countersept 2015 012.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by amahoy View Post
    Here is a good photo of a fork. This one can be found at the Palmer Fish and Game office behind the countersept 2015 012.jpg
    Is it shown as a legal fork?
    Born in Alaska: The boundary lines have fallen for me in pleasant places; surely I have a delightful inheritance. Psalm 16:6

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    @hoytguy

    According to Larry Lewis at the ADFG office in Soldotna, the word "brow" is a misprint in that line...It should read: "A point or tine originating within two inches of the base of the antler and less than three inches in length will not be counted as a tine"

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    The point of the language change is to excuse burrs at the base of the antler from being counted as tines per the spike/fork regulation. eg. a burr less than three inches long would not make a fork a 3pt and a burr would not make a spike a fork.

    There were some issues with this last year on the KP...people lost moose because of burrs growing very close to the antler base that were almost impossible to see until the hunter was standing next to the animal.

    Quote Originally Posted by highestview View Post
    That change is really unclear to me. From what I've heard, that is primarily oriented towards large moose which do not have enough brow tines, and sometimes they find a 'lamb tip' as it's called on the beam, not on the brow. So to be safe, don't count a point on the beam towards the brow tines of a big bull, and don't shoot a spike/fork that has 3 points.

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