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Thread: 30-30 vs 357 in a lever gun.

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    Default 30-30 vs 357 in a lever gun.

    In the words of Gunblast writer Jeff Quinn Quote: " The 357 Magnum out of a carbine barrel is a whole different animal than the same cartridge fired from a four or six inch revolver. The combination of a sealed breech and long barrel really brings the efficient little cartridge to life, and it can safely be loaded up to 30-30 power levels, and with a fatter bullet."
    I say horse puckey. You can't make a 357 on par with a 30-30 when shot from rifle barrels. No way, no how!

    Thoughts?

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by elmerkeithclone View Post
    "...and it can safely be loaded up to 30-30 power levels, and with a fatter bullet."
    I say horse puckey.
    Maybe he's trying to inspire the same guys loading 45-70's to near 458 Win ballistics. Of course with its teeny powder capacity less than half that of a 30-30, it would be a REAL trick to find a suitable powder. A case darned near full of 2400 certainly won't do it, so which one? DuPont Fairy Dust 2033Bullpie maybe, the same stuff he's snorting up his nose. I have lots of experience freight training 357's from a TC Contender, and the guy is out in space. Give me the same powder capacity as the 30-30, and maybe. Of course, the 35/30-30 has been around for about a century, so he has to try something else to get his name in lights.
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    Member GrassLakeRon's Avatar
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    Please see exhibit one:https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=100

    You know Tim used to read these, I wish he would come back and comment.

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    Now armed with exhibit one, read this:https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...uct_list&c=108

    I would think that this is the cause of many questions here. I would love to here a real world true account of some using the 9mm+p+ to brain stop a big bear.

    So if a 9mm can stop a bear, then a 357 can surpass a 30-30 and world peace happens tomorrow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elmerkeithclone View Post
    In the words of Gunblast writer Jeff Quinn Quote: " The 357 Magnum out of a carbine barrel is a whole different animal than the same cartridge fired from a four or six inch revolver. The combination of a sealed breech and long barrel really brings the efficient little cartridge to life, and it can safely be loaded up to 30-30 power levels, and with a fatter bullet."
    I say horse puckey. You can't make a 357 on par with a 30-30 when shot from rifle barrels. No way, no how!

    Thoughts?
    Can you post a Link?

    No Way. Such a premise is, on the face of it, Ludicrous.

    As BB pointed out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrassLakeRon View Post
    Now armed with exhibit one, read this:https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...uct_list&c=108

    I would think that this is the cause of many questions here. I would love to here a real world true account of some using the 9mm+p+ to brain stop a big bear.

    So if a 9mm can stop a bear, then a 357 can surpass a 30-30 and world peace happens tomorrow.

    one day closer to alaska.
    Well...someone DID shoot and kill a bear fishing on the Kenai or Russian with a Glock 9mm. Some time around 2002 or 2003 if I recall. Not the tool for the job, but it worked for the young airmen involved. ADN archives and Google can find it for you.


    I will admit the .357 out of a rifle gets a significant boost over a service revolver.... but equivalent to a 30-30? Not hardly and certainly not with any old .357 ammo you stick in the chamber. You can cherry pick the data, but that's not real world.
    "I do not deal in hypotheticals. The world, as it is, is vexing enough..." Col. Stonehill, True Grit

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    Quote Originally Posted by hodgeman View Post
    Well...someone DID shoot and kill a bear fishing on the Kenai or Russian with a Glock 9mm. Some time around 2002 or 2003 if I recall. Not the tool for the job, but it worked for the young airmen involved. ADN archives and Google can find it for you.


    I will admit the .357 out of a rifle gets a significant boost over a service revolver.... but equivalent to a 30-30? Not hardly and certainly not with any old .357 ammo you stick in the chamber. You can cherry pick the data, but that's not real world.
    2002, 9mm fmj. The adn link is dead. I guess anything is possible, still waiting on world peace.

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    200 gr hardcast at 1700-1800 fps is quite feasible in a 20" closed breach 357 magnum, and 15 gr of H-110 will get you there. The 30-30 will push a 200 gr cast a tad under 2000 fps.

    Are they identical?, no. Are they on par in terms of terminal performance, it seems quite reasonable.

    The 357 mag generally has a bad rap from lightly constructed 125 gr bullets driven fast or medium weight bullets driven slow due to the round being downrated when more lightly constructed guns were introduced. But in a strong gun that can handle the original 45 kpsi loads and heavy for caliber bullets, it's no bb gun.
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    I shoot the hard cast 165 gr Keith (.358429 I think) at about 1750 with LilGun out of an old 20" Marlin. It's not anywhere near a .30-30 170 gr BUT, I'm pretty sure the critter that catches it won't know the difference. You can push them hotter but they start to lead the barrel in my Marlin.

    The modern powders allow us to push the old .45 LC at very respectable speeds from a rifle barrel and it's not a .45-70 but still deadly.

    Equal...NOT, but still a potent round out of a rifle.
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  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Equal...NOT, but still a potent round out of a rifle.
    There ya go.

    There's another advantage pistoleros don't like to talk about: Fast, accurate shooting.

    Average guy probably doesn't shoot 10 rounds a month through his monster belt gun, but figures he's ready to take on a herd of bears. Aside from the fact he can't hit a barn shooting from the inside, he's slow for followup rounds after the first misses the mark.

    Give the same guy a short, handy lever gun, and he's going to hit more often and faster. Rifles are just easier to hit with and hit fast on minimal practice. For backup in a tight situation I'd take a guy with a lever 357 over a 10-round a month 500 Smith shooter any day. Make it a 44 mag or 45 Colt lever, and I'd be even happier. I probably know two dozen guys with 500 Smiths. Proud to a man, they're so "impressed" with all that noise an recoil they couldn't hit any part of a bear on a fast second shot.... If the first one even came close. Hand them a lever gun and they're all Annie Oakley.
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    Alaska magazine previously had a story about DLP shootings comparing guns used against bears. The most successfully used caliber was a .357 magnum. It did not go into details of possible reasons such as size of bears or the possibility that the person could more accurately shoot less recoiling handguns for follow up shots, etc.

    I used to carry a 500 S&W and could shoot it fairly accurately but just found it too cumbersome and heavy even on a chest rig. I prefer a .44 with hard cast and I do think I shoot well enough. That said I would not hesitate to carry one of my 686's with hard-cast hot loads because I can shoot those guns better than any others I own. .357 carbines were popular in TX when I was there and they work very well on hogs and deer out to a pretty long range. Quite a bit more wallop than a stubby barrel!

    The Glock 9mm shooting I remember from the Russian river around 2002 involved all rounds being fired broadside and another person ditched a 12 gauge and dove into the river. (Can't make that stupidity up).

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    I admit to packing a .357 from time to time in AK. (Edit: No bears were harmed!) I've put plenty of game, mostly deer, on the table with my 30-30 and .32WS. None of these guns are usually my 1st choice at this stage of my life. I enjoyed reading Mike Bellm's (Bellm'sTC) stories about the .357 Rem. Max. and if I were to have a gun built for the .357 I think I'd do it in the Max.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AKBEE View Post
    The Glock 9mm shooting I remember from the Russian river around 2002 involved all rounds being fired broadside and another person ditched a 12 gauge and dove into the river. (Can't make that stupidity up).
    If my memory hasn't failed, a young girl "caught" that 12 ga. while fishing downriver! It was a pretty wild story all things considered. They were some very lucky folks.
    "I do not deal in hypotheticals. The world, as it is, is vexing enough..." Col. Stonehill, True Grit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    Can you post a Link?

    No Way. Such a premise is, on the face of it, Ludicrous.

    As BB pointed out.

    SOTN
    www.gunblast.com/SteveYoung.htm
    Bottom of second paragraph.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elmerkeithclone View Post
    www.gunblast.com/SteveYoung.htm
    Bottom of second paragraph.
    Thanks, EKC:

    When he says "30 - 30 power levels" he could be referencing ft lbs of muzzle energy.

    I can't imagine a more ridiculous way of computing killing power. I've trained myself to ignore those worthless figures, for comparing cartridges, but gun writers continue use them. For something to write about I guess.

    30 30 - 170 grain should have a big edge on ballistics, including range, over anything you could load in a 357 rifle.

    357 is such a cartridge that a rifle length barrel greatly increases velocity, but there's gotta be a point of diminishing returns. I seriously doubt barrel length could make up for the difference in case capacity, no matter how long it was.

    My 357 Mdl 92 was fun, and useful for varmints and home defense, easy to pack, but it was a close range gun, and not very accurate, even at 25 yards.

    EKC, would you shoot a deer from a tree stand with a 92--357?

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    Smitty,

    Around Michigan, 357 kills a lot of dear and black bear. My son's hunter safety instructor a few years back showed us a video he shot shooting a deer with his handgun at 40 yards with his 357.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    Thanks, EKC:

    When he says "30 - 30 power levels" he could be referencing ft lbs of muzzle energy.

    I can't imagine a more ridiculous way of computing killing power. I've trained myself to ignore those worthless figures, for comparing cartridges, but gun writers continue use them. For something to write about I guess.

    30 30 - 170 grain should have a big edge on ballistics, including range, over anything you could load in a 357 rifle.

    357 is such a cartridge that a rifle length barrel greatly increases velocity, but there's gotta be a point of diminishing returns. I seriously doubt barrel length could make up for the difference in case capacity, no matter how long it was.

    My 357 Mdl 92 was fun, and useful for varmints and home defense, easy to pack, but it was a close range gun, and not very accurate, even at 25 yards.

    EKC, would you shoot a deer from a tree stand with a 92--357?

    SOTN
    Yup, I'd shoot a deer with a 357 handgun but only at bow and arrow ranges. I have shot a hundred thousands rounds through 686s and I would be very picky about the shot and know that if the deer offerd that shot then it would die.

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    Just a thought to add to that Smitty. Though I would shoot a deer with a 357 handgun out to 50 yards top and it would have to be a perfect broadside shot with the front leg forward exposing the vitals with nothing but ribcage betwixt the gun barrel and the bullet. I might go out to 100 yards in a 357 rifle if it was a good shooter. I would double that distance with a 30-30.

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    OK, EKC:

    That supports my thinking that 357, ŕifle OR handgun, us basically a short range tool.

    Frankly, I have to limit myself to bout 50 yards when using Iron sights.

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  20. #20

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    I concur, based on clanking a pretty fair number of deer with the 357 in both revolvers and a Contender. Though I can certainly target shoot further with an open sighted revolver, responsible shooting tells me I'm a 50 yard maxxer. With the super-accurate scoped Contender I could bash pop cans with only the bottoms showing all day long at 100 yards. They were in serious danger out at 150 yards when I got the elevation right. I sighted it in at 100 yards and was prepared to take deer shots out to 150, even if the longest I can actually remember taking was at 120. Open sighted lever rifle? My eyes say that's a 100 yard outfit for me. Put a scope on it, and I wouldn't hesitate at 150.

    But.... I say again BUT!!!!!!

    Those are all load specific. Best round bar none for the revolver, in terms of deer on the ground FAST, was a 125 grain HP. The 150 hard cast were reliable killers, but they never put the deer on the ground anywhere near so fast.

    My load for the Contender was a 180 grain jacketed SP to take advantage of its longer range potential. I clanked a few deer with the 200 grain FN cast I like so much in the Contender, but kills were not nearly so quick as that 180. Kills slowed down a lot dropping to a 150 cast at 100 yards plus a little.

    I'd almost certainly go with that 180 jacketed SP in a lever gun at all ranges. The 200 is too long to cycle, and I'd be worried about anything lighter than the 180 coming apart at rifle velocities and closer ranges. The SP's have big flat noses on them and appear to work like a big meplat on a cast bullet, even if they don't expand.

    I have to say though, that in all those combos and I bet 40 deer, I never managed to recover a bullet. It's all my theory (best guess) based on speed of deer chins hitting ground and pondering wound channels. Dunno (and don't care!) how that stacks up with the wisdom of the internet and keyboard hunters, but I can live with it.
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