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Thread: Drift and set Emergency opener

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    Default Drift and set Emergency opener

    http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/ap...674574641.pdf5

    AAC 21.310 (b)(2)(C)(i) Fishing Seasons states that the Kasilof Section set gillnet fishery openson the first Monday or Thursday on or after June 25 each year, unless 50,000 sockeye salmon areestimated to be in the Kasilof River before that date, at which time the fishery may open byemergency order, but not earlier than June 20. As of 7:00 p.m. on Wednesday, June 22, 2016,approximately 37,000 sockeye salmon are estimated to have passed the Kasilof River sonar site.Passage rates have increased the past two days and the number of sockeye salmon that haveentered the Kasilof River downstream of the sonar site is likely to result in more than 50,000 fishin cumulative sonar passage before June 25. Therefore, this announcement opens the KasilofSection set gillnet fishery in compliance with the aforementioned regulation and also with theobjective to reduce the sockeye salmon rate of escapement into the Kasilof River.

    It seems to me that the Department is exceeding its authority in open defiance of statute. It clearly states that the fishery opens after June 25th, unless 50,000 sockeye are estimated to be in the river before that date. At the time of this announcement, 37,000 fish are IN the river; not 50,000. They are estimated to arrive in the river and be there before the 25th, but are not IN THE RIVER, as the statute states. BIG difference between "are in the river," and "we expect they will be in the river."


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    Quote Originally Posted by willphish4food View Post
    http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/ap...674574641.pdf5

    AAC 21.310 (b)(2)(C)(i) Fishing Seasons states that the Kasilof Section set gillnet fishery openson the first Monday or Thursday on or after June 25 each year, unless 50,000 sockeye salmon areestimated to be in the Kasilof River before that date, at which time the fishery may open byemergency order, but not earlier than June 20. As of 7:00 p.m. on Wednesday, June 22, 2016,approximately 37,000 sockeye salmon are estimated to have passed the Kasilof River sonar site.Passage rates have increased the past two days and the number of sockeye salmon that haveentered the Kasilof River downstream of the sonar site is likely to result in more than 50,000 fishin cumulative sonar passage before June 25. Therefore, this announcement opens the KasilofSection set gillnet fishery in compliance with the aforementioned regulation and also with theobjective to reduce the sockeye salmon rate of escapement into the Kasilof River.

    It seems to me that the Department is exceeding its authority in open defiance of statute. It clearly states that the fishery opens after June 25th, unless 50,000 sockeye are estimated to be in the river before that date. At the time of this announcement, 37,000 fish are IN the river; not 50,000. They are estimated to arrive in the river and be there before the 25th, but are not IN THE RIVER, as the statute states. BIG difference between "are in the river," and "we expect they will be in the river."

    I could not get the link to work. But I'm still lost.

    Your quote says " ...... It clearly states that the fishery opens after June 25th, unless 50,000 sockeye are estimated to be in the river before that date. " The word 'estimated' is in your quote. They estimate 37K now, and the estimate will likely exceed 50K before 6/25.

    If that accurately reflects the statute, ADF&G is on the right side of the law, in this instance. Perhaps I'm missing something.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by willphish4food View Post
    http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/ap...674574641.pdf5

    AAC 21.310 (b)(2)(C)(i) Fishing Seasons states that the Kasilof Section set gillnet fishery openson the first Monday or Thursday on or after June 25 each year, unless 50,000 sockeye salmon areestimated to be in the Kasilof River before that date, at which time the fishery may open byemergency order, but not earlier than June 20. As of 7:00 p.m. on Wednesday, June 22, 2016,approximately 37,000 sockeye salmon are estimated to have passed the Kasilof River sonar site.Passage rates have increased the past two days and the number of sockeye salmon that haveentered the Kasilof River downstream of the sonar site is likely to result in more than 50,000 fishin cumulative sonar passage before June 25. Therefore, this announcement opens the KasilofSection set gillnet fishery in compliance with the aforementioned regulation and also with theobjective to reduce the sockeye salmon rate of escapement into the Kasilof River.

    It seems to me that the Department is exceeding its authority in open defiance of statute. It clearly states that the fishery opens after June 25th, unless 50,000 sockeye are estimated to be in the river before that date. At the time of this announcement, 37,000 fish are IN the river; not 50,000. They are estimated to arrive in the river and be there before the 25th, but are not IN THE RIVER, as the statute states. BIG difference between "are in the river," and "we expect they will be in the river."

    Wrong again. The count is 37,000 as of 7PM. The sonar is up river 10 miles which means before the opening there will be at least one more tide plus the fish below the counter. They were on track for a 10,000 fish day yesterday so that means the fish below the counter are added to the 37,000. ADF&G knows the statue and this decision was reviewed all the way to the Commissioner office. They know the law better than you Will and you should be shamed for making this claim. The projection is just that a projection. In the last decade they have missed the Kasilof goal by a wide margin and they know they need to fish before late run chinook show up in any large numbers. Take them now while chinook are down. Plus the forecast for chinook is good and so far runs have exceeded forecast.

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    Nerka, I like your math. 37,000 (less than 50,000) + 10,000 (still less than 50,000) estimated to be in the river meets the requirement of an estimated 50,000 fish.

    Using that logic, why not open it on the 20th, using the argument that using escapement modeling there should be 50,000 fish in the river by the 25th? The statute is pretty clear that the fish need to be in the river before the fishery gets opened, not projected to get there despite the fishery being opened. If this management plan as written in statute isn't working, then it needs to be changed by the Board.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cohoangler View Post
    I could not get the link to work. But I'm still lost.

    Your quote says " ...... It clearly states that the fishery opens after June 25th, unless 50,000 sockeye are estimated to be in the river before that date. " The word 'estimated' is in your quote. They estimate 37K now, and the estimate will likely exceed 50K before 6/25.

    If that accurately reflects the statute, ADF&G is on the right side of the law, in this instance. Perhaps I'm missing something.......
    The department bristles at restraints placed upon them by the board. The old saying "give them an inch, they'll take a mile" is very true, and is applicable here. This is a hard number that was put in place to keep from opening the commercial fisheries before June 25th, unless there were already 50,000 fish in the river. Restraints like this have been put on the department because of past performances. The fish were not already in the river when the announcement was made. They were projected to be in the river. Big difference there. This is not a fishery that will only catch Kasilof bound reds. Its a mixed stock fishery. All 5 species, from all over the inlet, will be in the mix.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willphish4food View Post
    http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/ap...674574641.pdf5

    AAC 21.310 (b)(2)(C)(i) Fishing Seasons states that the Kasilof Section set gillnet fishery openson the first Monday or Thursday on or after June 25 each year, unless 50,000 sockeye salmon are estimated to be in the Kasilof River before that date, at which time the fishery may open byemergency order, but not earlier than June 20. As of 7:00 p.m. on Wednesday, June 22, 2016,approximately 37,000 sockeye salmon are estimated to have passed the Kasilof River sonar site.Passage rates have increased the past two days and the number of sockeye salmon that haveentered the Kasilof River downstream of the sonar site is likely to result in more than 50,000 fishin cumulative sonar passage before June 25. Therefore, this announcement opens the KasilofSection set gillnet fishery in compliance with the aforementioned regulation and also with theobjective to reduce the sockeye salmon rate of escapement into the Kasilof River.

    It seems to me that the Department is exceeding its authority in open defiance of statute. It clearly states that the fishery opens after June 25th, unless 50,000 sockeye are estimated to be in the river before that date. At the time of this announcement, 37,000 fish are IN the river; not 50,000. They are estimated to arrive in the river and be there before the 25th, but are not IN THE RIVER, as the statute states. BIG difference between "are in the river," and "we expect they will be in the river."

    I can't figure out where you are missing it. Read your highlighted section again. And again if needed.

    You keep saying that the 50,000 have to be in the river-by statute. You highlighted the sentence that says they only need to be estimated to be in the river.

    Counts in the Kasilof totaled 40,000 thru midnight last night (thru the 22nd), 10,000 yesterday alone.

    Fish & Game has now estimate/project that the Kasilof escapement will be at or over 50,000 before the 25th of June. According to the statute above, they can now open the fishery.It's much better to open the fishery now, during low abundance of LR Kenai kings, than to wait until later when these fish are more abundant.

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    http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/ap.../674574641.pdf
    What fish or how many, or how important this EO is to the health of the run is not the issue. What is the issue, is that Fish and Game did not have the required escapement in the Kasilof yet to issue this order.

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    Do you know for a fact, that since the sonar is almost 10 miles upriver, that F&G weren't estimating that the 10,000 additional fish needed to make the 50,000 threshhold, are already in the river but BELOW the counter?? This would satisfy the statute, as it doesn't say they have to be by the counter.

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    I believe the Kasilof has been over escaped 9 of the 10 last years. Strong returns early that have not been fished due to King concerns have been a major factor. Kings have done better this year, and this is traditionally a slower time for Kings on the east side in between early and late runs. Stats for these early openers show a lot of pretty clean Kasilof Sockeye fishing.

    Willphish, I understand your concerns for sustainability of our resources, but I don't understand you constant desire to restrict others' opportunity. This is a completely sustainable call, and I doubt it will affect you in any way. Let other people go fishing, will ya?

    FTR, I haven't seen a King yet. Dangit...

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    This isn't a question about what's best for the river or other semantics. I believe the department twisted the statutory language to suit its designs. What matter to you or the resource if you were out there fishing today, or tomorrow? Fish and Game could have waited one more day to make the announcement, if their assumptions to run strength are correct, and been within their authority. And you'd still be fishing, just tomorrow, instead of today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willphish4food View Post
    Nerka, I like your math. 37,000 (less than 50,000) + 10,000 (still less than 50,000) estimated to be in the river meets the requirement of an estimated 50,000 fish.

    Using that logic, why not open it on the 20th, using the argument that using escapement modeling there should be 50,000 fish in the river by the 25th? The statute is pretty clear that the fish need to be in the river before the fishery gets opened, not projected to get there despite the fishery being opened. If this management plan as written in statute isn't working, then it needs to be changed by the Board.
    Can you not understand basic math? 37,000 by 7 pm. They were going to have a 10000 fish day by midnight. So add the 3000 fish coming from 7 to midnight gives one 40,000. The river will get additional fish from midnight to the opening and what was in the river after midnight. That is estimated to be around 10,000 so one gets 50,000 as an estimate. So midnight last night was 40,000, today counts 10,000 or so and then fish coming in today on the tide that escapes the fishery. Pretty simple math. Cohoangler got it.

    Just one more point. With an increasing trend in escapement at this time of year without fishing the count could have been 25000 or more. Look at the historical data. So they wanted to get in front of that probability. Willphish4food has never understood fishery management decisions and that is O.K but he should not cast stones at the department because of that. Fishing now is the best for every user, except maybe northern kbeach and salamatof gill net fishery. There will be a few kings caught and those would have been counted in the river. So they would like to front load the river but in a mixed stock fishery taking the targeted stock when other stocks are low in abundance is a good idea.

    Just talked to ADF&G. They were at 40,000 at midnight and have a little over 5000 at 1 pm today. They will be right at 50,000 by midnight tonight. Willphish4food you can apologize to the comm fish staff next time you see them.

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    Default Drift and set Emergency opener

    Quote Originally Posted by willphish4food View Post
    This isn't a question about what's best for the river or other semantics. I believe the department twisted the statutory language to suit its designs. What matter to you or the resource if you were out there fishing today, or tomorrow? Fish and Game could have waited one more day to make the announcement, if their assumptions to run strength are correct, and been within their authority. And you'd still be fishing, just tomorrow, instead of today.
    Yes, a Friday opener would have been optimal. Apparently you forgot about the hard 36 hour Friday closure window that the sport fishing lobby passed. Kinda puts ADFG in a jam if they are attempting to manage on abundance rather than someone's work calendar.

    Don't act like you wouldn't be just as pissed if they ignored the Friday closure window, or had back to back openers this weekend instead of fishing today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    Can you not understand basic math? 37,000 by 7 pm. They were going to have a 10000 fish day by midnight. So add the 3000 fish coming from 7 to midnight gives one 40,000. The river will get additional fish from midnight to the opening and what was in the river after midnight. That is estimated to be around 10,000 so one gets 50,000 as an estimate. So midnight last night was 40,000, today counts 10,000 or so and then fish coming in today on the tide that escapes the fishery. Pretty simple math. Cohoangler got it.

    Just one more point. With an increasing trend in escapement at this time of year without fishing the count could have been 25000 or more. Look at the historical data. So they wanted to get in front of that probability. Willphish4food has never understood fishery management decisions and that is O.K but he should not cast stones at the department because of that. Fishing now is the best for every user, except maybe northern kbeach and salamatof gill net fishery. There will be a few kings caught and those would have been counted in the river. So they would like to front load the river but in a mixed stock fishery taking the targeted stock when other stocks are low in abundance is a good idea.

    Just talked to ADF&G. They were at 40,000 at midnight and have a little over 5000 at 1 pm today. They will be right at 50,000 by midnight tonight. Willphish4food you can apologize to the comm fish staff next time you see them.
    Its a good thing for our legal system that only government entities are allowed impunity to wiggle around statutory language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willphish4food View Post
    Its a good thing for our legal system that only government entities are allowed impunity to wiggle around statutory language.
    no one is wiggling around anything. They are very upfront about how they made the projection. Also you seem to forgot inseason adfg does not have to follow BOF management plans to
    meet goals. Tbsmith was correct to bring up past history of escapements. ADFG could open the fishery at any level they want if it is for escapement goal management. Try to understand the plans or stick to selling guided trips and equipment.

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    I'm sure you will agree that this is the first time that this particular plan provision was interpreted in this manner

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bfish View Post
    I'm sure you will agree that this is the first time that this particular plan provision was interpreted in this manner
    No. We made projections all the time when the triggers were put in. Go back enough years and you will see this. Only in recent history has ADFG looked at the numbers and made poor projections at the Juneau level. Recent bad projections does not change the intent of the regulation. Was part of adfg when passed so know the discussion well by bof members

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    Quote Originally Posted by willphish4food View Post
    Its a good thing for our legal system that only government entities are allowed impunity to wiggle around statutory language.
    Of course the irony here is that this EO caught the sport fish lobby as off guard as commercial fishermen, meaning you guys didn't have time to pitch arguments against giving set and drift user groups opportunity. Perhaps your paid lobbyists will file an ACR to keep this kind of injustice from happening again...

    I haven't heard a salient argument against this opening, other than one's interpretation of the management plan. Am I missing something or are you guys just opposed to other people having a chance to go fishing? Judging from your arguments here and KRSA/Matsu AC BOF proposals for 2017, that seems to be the case.

    Cleared out a truckload of (primarily) Kasilof reds today - not a single King. Unfortunate too, cause I have customers in line to buy them @ 2-3 times the price of fresh reds.

    Long day - at least I have a 36 hour closure window to go to work and rest up, no matter how many fish swim by. Thanks KRSA!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by smithtb View Post
    Of course the irony here is that this EO caught the sport fish lobby as off guard as commercial fishermen, meaning you guys didn't have time to pitch arguments against giving set and drift user groups opportunity. Perhaps your paid lobbyists will file an ACR to keep this kind of injustice from happening again...

    I haven't heard a salient argument against this opening, other than one's interpretation of the management plan. Am I missing something or are you guys just opposed to other people having a chance to go fishing? Judging from your arguments here and KRSA/Matsu AC BOF proposals for 2017, that seems to be the case.

    Cleared out a truckload of (primarily) Kasilof reds today - not a single King. Unfortunate too, cause I have customers in line to buy them @ 2-3 times the price of fresh reds.

    Long day - at least I have a 36 hour closure window to go to work and rest up, no matter how many fish swim by. Thanks KRSA!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Glad you got a few! I'm off to Whittier with a deckload of chums and gallons of shrimp. 👍

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    Rather than arguing over statutory language and in-river estimates, we should review the intent of the language.

    Seems to me the purpose is to ensure the sockeye fishery remain closed prior to June 25, unless ADF&G can be reasonably sure that 50K sockeye are in the river. That's the point. The specifics of where and how they determine whether 50K sockeye are in the river would be a decision reserved to the fish managers at ADF&G. If their means/methods of measuring escapement are reasonable, and if the run-size estimates they derive are within commonly accepted confidence limits, they're good to go. In my view, they've cleared those hurdles in this instance.

    But B-fish's comment has me a bit confused. What ADF&G is doing seems reasonable to me. So why is this the first time they've done this? Is there anything unique to the in-river conditions this year?

    Lastly, if the incidental catch of Chinook is low in this fishery, at this time of year, this would be the exact time to optimize the commercial catch of sockeye (as Nerka has stated many times). Not sure why there should be resistance to that idea.

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    If fish and game cannot meet management objectives under current plans, then either the plans need changing or the goals need changing. But when a plan is written into statute, the department has to remain within the guidelines.

    This is a different discussion altogether, but if the Kasilof has an SEG, and has gone over the sustainable goal in 9 out of 10 years, then the goal needs to be raised, as there is 10 years of evidence showing that a higher escapement is sustainable, and yields larger runs.

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