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Thread: S&W K frame

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    Default S&W K frame

    Can a K frame S&W handle a steady diet of warm factory 357 loads? Or should those warm loads be saved for the "L" and "N" frames. This was a recent discussion at a local gun shop. My feeling is that they can, have and will. I know of a 19 and a 66 that have been shot very regularly for many years using red and white box Winchester USA ammo. Both guns are as tight as some of the brand new ones.

    Your thoughts?

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    Member hodgeman's Avatar
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    Older pre-2003 K-Frames would not handle a steady diet of true full power loads. The new frames will (supposedly) take the licking though.

    I've seen several that the cylinder would rattle when you shook them and were really out of time. The L-Frame was the improved version for lots of full throttle magnums and Ruger made a lot of to-do about the beefiness of it's GP-100 for high volume magnum shooting. I've never seen a loose L-frame or GP100.

    The K-frame is perhaps my favorite handgun ever made. I had a M19 with a 2.5" barrel that held up well over many years of carry, but I rarely shot anything other than 38+P out of it and a M66 and M65 that were just perfect... 38s for practice, .357s with 125 JHP for carry. I also have a M10 and M67 that are very nice when loaded with +P 158r SWC.
    "I do not deal in hypotheticals. The world, as it is, is vexing enough..." Col. Stonehill, True Grit

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by hodgeman View Post
    Older pre-2003 K-Frames would not handle a steady diet of true full power loads. The new frames will (supposedly) take the licking though.

    I've seen several that the cylinder would rattle when you shook them and were really out of time. The L-Frame was the improved version for lots of full throttle magnums and Ruger made a lot of to-do about the beefiness of it's GP-100 for high volume magnum shooting. I've never seen a loose L-frame or GP100.

    The K-frame is perhaps my favorite handgun ever made. I had a M19 with a 2.5" barrel that held up well over many years of carry, but I rarely shot anything other than 38+P out of it and a M66 and M65 that were just perfect... 38s for practice, .357s with 125 JHP for carry. I also have a M10 and M67 that are very nice when loaded with +P 158r SWC.
    Useful info on the pre-2003's, which all of mine and all I've seen have been. And I've sure seen a passle of them loose and out of time from a steady diet of warm loads. But every man jack owner I've seen who's shot that much was also a reloader. And that brings us down to the definition of "warm factory 357 loads." That's subject to broad interpretation, but I've known very few reloaders who stopped right where the loading book said to stop.

    And yeah, the K is one of those lifetime guns for me. There's a M19 out in the safe, but also a K-22 and K-38 and an M-15. Missed the boat by minutes on a NIB K-32 target model about 4 decades back, and like to broke my heart. Haven't seen another since.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
    I've sure seen a passle of them loose and out of time from a steady diet of warm loads. But every man jack owner I've seen who's shot that much was also a reloader. And that brings us down to the definition of "warm factory 357 loads." That's subject to broad interpretation, but I've known very few reloaders who stopped right where the loading book said to stop..
    I think you're on to something there... there's been hundreds of loads published for the .357 and even in modern factory ammo there's a huge amount of variation in the pressures experienced. Defining a "warm" load is something of a problem...some .357 loads barely break the pressures that 38+P does (or at least once did) and some of it is just south of frightening. I carried some 180gr Buffalo Bore for critter defense once upon a time...rated at 1400fps...I figured the gun would last for six shots and if I made it....I'd happily buy a new one!

    Some of the Super Vel type loads favored back in the day were certainly hard on guns... 125gr@ 1500-1600fps. But they did have a stellar reputation for planting bad guys.
    "I do not deal in hypotheticals. The world, as it is, is vexing enough..." Col. Stonehill, True Grit

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    Quote Originally Posted by elmerkeithclone View Post
    Can a K frame S&W handle a steady diet of warm factory 357 loads? Or should those warm loads be saved for the "L" and "N" frames. This was a recent discussion at a local gun shop. My feeling is that they can, have and will. I know of a 19 and a 66 that have been shot very regularly for many years using red and white box Winchester USA ammo. Both guns are as tight as some of the brand new ones.

    Your thoughts?
    This might shed some light on problems with the S&W mdl 19.

    http://www.gunblast.com/Butch_MagnumLoads.htm

    I would LOVE to have the one belonging to a friend of mine. It is SUPER accurate, even for me.

    SOTN
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    Good info for sure gents. Now let's take it a step further...what about the J frame in 357? I have a model 60 Chiefs Special. It's one of the newer ones with the butt ugly key hole above the cylinder latch. I have never worried about warm loads in a K frame. However I have never turned any hot loads loose in this J frame.

    I actually bought this gun for my wife as a present. However it was soon evident that it was a little too wild with +P loads for her petite hands.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by hodgeman View Post
    Some of the Super Vel type loads favored back in the day were certainly hard on guns... 125gr@ 1500-1600fps. But they did have a stellar reputation for planting bad guys.
    For good reason! In my years of dinking deer with all sorts of handguns, that became my all-time favorite deer load. It flat flattened them as far away as I cared to poke at them. Better than any other round- even 44 mag- at putting them down FAST. It sure would have been my choice for a defensive load.

    And J-Frame 357's? Probably a generational issue. I have several J's in 22 and 38, including the relatively rare 649. I never even considered picking up (or even firing) one in 357. Nothing I wanted in my hand whether the gun would hold up or not. Even if new metals and manufacturing methods promised good service, I really wouldn't be interested. I suffered through the failure of two Charter Arms Bulldogs 44 Specials in under 2k rounds with light factory loads, and it was enough to make me suspicious of any ultralight revolver pushing bigger rounds or higher pressures. Not S&W's fault that the Charter Arms were such worthless pigs, but my thinking and tastes were colored in spite of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmerkeithclone View Post
    Good info for sure gents. Now let's take it a step further...what about the J frame in 357? I have a model 60 Chiefs Special. It's one of the newer ones with the butt ugly key hole above the cylinder latch. I have never worried about warm loads in a K frame. However I have never turned any hot loads loose in this J frame..
    I've had a couple of these... with .357s they are pretty tough to shoot well. I've only shot a few .357s through them but they did eat a steady diet of .38+P SWCs without any issue.

    For me the little M60s are a "carry much, shoot little" kind of gun. I did shoot a finisher into a caribou noggin a few years back with one- thoroughly unimpressed with the results there. It worked, but I'm glad it wasn't something with teeth and claws.
    "I do not deal in hypotheticals. The world, as it is, is vexing enough..." Col. Stonehill, True Grit

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    Quote Originally Posted by hodgeman View Post
    I've had a couple of these... with .357s they are pretty tough to shoot well. I've only shot a few .357s through them but they did eat a steady diet of .38+P SWCs without any issue.

    For me the little M60s are a "carry much, shoot little" kind of gun. I did shoot a finisher into a caribou noggin a few years back with one- thoroughly unimpressed with the results there. It worked, but I'm glad it wasn't something with teeth and claws.
    "carry much, shoot little" I would say that sums it up real well. I have considered making it my carry gun and I am right with you and BB with those 125s. I have only killed a few deer with a 357 and each time it was late season and I was hunting pheasants and had my "L" frame strapped on with 125XTPs. I carried it for coon, badger, feral cat or whatever else could and would rip up a bird dogs nose. I usually had a late season doe tag in my pocket. Once in a while a stupid deer would jump in a wooly draw and then stop to look back and I'd plunk em. Hit one in the boiler room with a 125 XTP and they will be coughing up lungs real soon and usually die before they get out of sight

    I shot my 1911 Commander 50 rounds on sunday afternoon. Man I hate chasing brass. Might load up some 110 XTPs and start carrying the mini 686. That's how I see the Chiefs Special.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elmerkeithclone View Post
    Man I hate chasing brass.
    They might as well put that on my tombstone. Only semi's I own these days are 22's. Of course that puts the onus on me to be good with double action revolvers. Done that.
    "Lay in the weeds and wait, and when you get your chance to say something, say something good."
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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    The 125 gr. bullets are no friend to the 19. My bride loves her old 19 6"
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    BB:
    I was thinking about the S&W mdl model 60, myself. I'm glad you brought it up, since there is ONE version that interests me a great deal, and it's the one with a 5" barrel. Called the Mdl 60 5 inch, IIRC.

    If 357 in minimum bear defense, Ease of Carry important, it seems to me, that we have here, the Dream of a Field Gun. I've not fired one, so dunno how the recoil.

    If I had purchased the one I seen at SW a while back, I'd know, but I ain't as smart as you and EKC. It could be a Treasure by now, since they no longer make them.

    Howsomever, EKC, I've attached, at least I hope I have, pictures of the Treasure I purchased for MY wife a few years back. A Colt Police Positive Mk V. The holster is a Custom from Diamond D, Bandoleer.

    It's her Berry Pickin gun. It is only a 38 Special, but she couldn't/wouldn't shoot anything more powerful. Besides, I checked with BB, back then, bout this purpose for a 38 Special, and he said, better than something she couldn't even shoot.

    20160606_123510.jpg20160606_123345_001.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
    They might as well put that on my tombstone. Only semi's I own these days are 22's. Of course that puts the onus on me to be good with double action revolvers. Done that.
    I'm with you on the auto pistols. Well, almost. There's my PPK and my Hi-Point 45.

    I love to shoot that contraption. It shoots as accurately as I shoot my volvers. Hmm, maybe Auto Pistols ARE more accurate. ???

    SOTN
    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
    You can't out-give God.

  14. #14

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    Your knees and patience must be a whole lot better than mine. I HATE crawling around trying to retrieve brass, then going home with only half what I left with. As for accuracy, well.... How many dedicated hunting handguns are autos?
    "Lay in the weeds and wait, and when you get your chance to say something, say something good."
    Merle Haggard

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
    Your knees and patience must be a whole lot better than mine. I HATE crawling around trying to retrieve brass, then going home with only half what I left with. As for accuracy, well.... How many dedicated hunting handguns are autos?
    I don't load for the 380 or the 45. I've no !need to pick up brass for them.

    Smitty of the North
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    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
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    Member hodgeman's Avatar
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    Oddly enough, a guy started talking to me about buying his M19 today...really clean, a -4 version...late 70s. Looked unfired.

    Best part....2 1/2 barrel with a round butt.

    Yeah, I'll buy it if he's willing to sell.
    "I do not deal in hypotheticals. The world, as it is, is vexing enough..." Col. Stonehill, True Grit

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by hodgeman View Post
    Oddly enough, a guy started talking to me about buying his M19 today...really clean, a -4 version...late 70s. Looked unfired.

    Best part....2 1/2 barrel with a round butt.

    Yeah, I'll buy it if he's willing to sell.
    I have a -4 model 65 with a 4 inch barrel. It's a little beat up. When I parted ways with my wore out 686 back in the eary 80's I went to a 629 Classic but that did not fill the void left by trading in the 686. I had to have a 4 inch 357 to carry while bird hunting. This 65 has the heavier barrel and balances just like a 4 inch 686. It shoots 125 and 158 grainers real well. I just have to bury the front sight a little deeper in the rear notch with the 125s. It is of course fixed sighted and I do miss the white outlined rear sight especially now that I don't have kid eyes anymore. It ain't a a bootifull thing but usually what it gets pointed at dies.

    Inside the front gate of my deer hunting honey hole there used to was a pickanick table. Over the years that table fell apart and the top was laying almost flat on the ground. One day I was mowing the lane and I watched a big woodchuck......he was a whopper......run across the drive and he took refuge under the remanents of said pickanick table. I shut the mower of and walked over to the table with the 65 drawn and reached down with my off hand and flipped it over thinking that I would be shooting at a fleeing woodchuck. I learned that day that wood chucks think that they are little brown bears.....least wise this one did. He stood up on his hind legs, growled at me and I drilled him. I decided that I liked this 65 on that day and also learned that while woodchucks are portrayed as cute critters in childrens books they probably ain't petable.

  18. #18

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    One other thing that comes to mind. I have one of the Ruger GP100 Match guns that is robust as heck but it sure does not feel as good in my hand as this 65 with Hogue grips. It doesn't shoot as well either...at least in my hands. I reckon I'll hang onto the 65 and maybe trade the the GP100 in on a bunch of loading components.........in case Bill's wife gets the nod and they become scarce again.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by hodgeman View Post
    ...round butt....
    Good on ya if you can shoot it! I have odd hands, and the round butt is like no grip at all for me. My hands are so wide I can hardly get on an extra large glove, but my fingers are stubby fingers don't reach the ends of the glove fingers. Kind of like ping pong paddles at the ends of my extra long arms. Or as my daughter sezz, I look like I'm packing a kayak paddle.

    The round butt doesn't reach into my palm much past my middle finger, if you can imagine. I'm a sincere fan of the old Jordan grips, opting for the slender version of the Pachmyer finger-groove models for "carry" guns" when grip length has to be clipped a little. J-frame round butts are a real problem, as you can guess, but the K isn't a whole lot better.

    Long and short of it, I won't be causing a shortage of round butts on the market!
    "Lay in the weeds and wait, and when you get your chance to say something, say something good."
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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    The Ruger SP=101 4.2" is a stout little five shot and with Hogue grippers will shoot the BB 180's right nice.
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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