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Thread: Kenai Susitna and "Cook Inlet" kings... what we know

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    Member fishNphysician's Avatar
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    Default Kenai Susitna and "Cook Inlet" kings... what we know

    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
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    " Gas boats are bad enough, autos are an invention of the devil, and airplanes are worse." ~Allen Hasselborg

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    Member fishNphysician's Avatar
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    You mean like this....

    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
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    This whole article is bullcrap. They leave out important data, do not discuss errors in counting, do not point out deska poor returns following large escapements were due to overescapement impacts and the list goes on. ADFG should be ashamed for this agenda driven piece to cover up serious issues. Instead things are great and we are doing a great job. This is the reason they are not trusted by the public and bof.

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    Nerka, how do you know poor returns following large escapements were "due to overescapement" rather than other factors?

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    Default same logic

    Nerka uses the same logic as that used to prove that climate change all of a sudden is man made!


    Quote Originally Posted by willphish4food View Post
    Nerka, how do you know poor returns following large escapements were "due to overescapement" rather than other factors?
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    Quote Originally Posted by willphish4food View Post
    Nerka, how do you know poor returns following large escapements were "due to overescapement" rather than other factors?
    ADF&G own reports on the Deska point this out as a probable cause. The replacement point was exceeded by a large margin. It is in the data willphish4food.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    Nerka uses the same logic as that used to prove that climate change all of a sudden is man made!
    Tvfinak you keep showing a complete lack of understanding of UCI fishery issues and the data. Relative to climate change the data is pretty solid and collected over decades. Not all of a sudden at all in drawing a conclusion. You really should not post when you have no clue what you are talking about.

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    Default What do you know?

    Yet you seem to be comfortable in making a statement about me and what I know - yet you obviously know nothing about what I know - or don't know!

    Just to enlighten you a bit - I've been following the climate change issue for around 45 years now since I worked on a project to remove fly ash from power plant smoke stacks. Seems like the fly ash was reflecting sunlight and a leading contributor to global cooling - another ice age was forecast by the "experts". I've also got a vast amount of experience in temperature measurement and a lot of the temperature measurements cited by the "experts" are simply BS. That climate change is happening is happening is not questioned - but is it man made or just the normal changes that have occurred over the history of the plant?

    Actually, here are also many similarities between fish science and management and the climate change issue. Both are very complex subjects with many variables and unknowns andt we are just beginning to realize what we don't know. Both have been studied for only a small space of time in the overall history. Both can have drastic changes caused by nature of which we have no control etc. And most important - both are political issues driven by greed and money, with the real science being twisted to put the most money in the pockets of those in influence.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    Tvfinak you keep showing a complete lack of understanding of UCI fishery issues and the data. Relative to climate change the data is pretty solid and collected over decades. Not all of a sudden at all in drawing a conclusion. You really should not post when you have no clue what you are talking about.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    Yet you seem to be comfortable in making a statement about me and what I know - yet you obviously know nothing about what I know - or don't know!

    Just to enlighten you a bit - I've been following the climate change issue for around 45 years now since I worked on a project to remove fly ash from power plant smoke stacks. Seems like the fly ash was reflecting sunlight and a leading contributor to global cooling - another ice age was forecast by the "experts". I've also got a vast amount of experience in temperature measurement and a lot of the temperature measurements cited by the "experts" are simply BS. That climate change is happening is happening is not questioned - but is it man made or just the normal changes that have occurred over the history of the plant?

    Actually, here are also many similarities between fish science and management and the climate change issue. Both are very complex subjects with many variables and unknowns andt we are just beginning to realize what we don't know. Both have been studied for only a small space of time in the overall history. Both can have drastic changes caused by nature of which we have no control etc. And most important - both are political issues driven by greed and money, with the real science being twisted to put the most money in the pockets of those in influence.
    I love it when someone rejects years of data and just states it is bad. I doubt seriously you have any expertize in the area of man induced increased in the rate of temperature change. Just like you have demonstrated little knowledge of fishery issues. You troll for comments with outlandish positions and people take the bait - including me. Time to release the hook and let you swim in your own pool of theories and factual incorrect positions.

    Just for the record I may not know you personally but I know your type. UCI fisheries issues brings out those who reject data if it does not meet their needs, makes up stuff to support their position, and rejects everyone else who provides contrary data to their position.

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    tvfinak, you're a troll trying to provoke off-topic discussions. Take your climate change crap somewhere else.

    This one is about Cook Inlet Kings.

    Folks, use the little triangle with the "!" at the bottom left corner of tvfinak's posts to report them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Funstastic View Post
    Folks, use the little triangle with the "!" at the bottom left corner of tvfinak's posts to report them.
    If I did I would have to go thru and report several of your threads. Forum Rules state "Comment on outdoor related ideas is welcome; comment on people is not."

    Quote Originally Posted by Funstastic View Post
    tvfinak, you're a troll.
    Quote Originally Posted by Funstastic View Post
    you are simply an emphatical liar.
    Quote Originally Posted by Funstastic View Post
    Once again you fail the intelligence test.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    ADF&G own reports on the Deska point this out as a probable cause. The replacement point was exceeded by a large margin. It is in the data willphish4food.
    seems like you are cherry picking, Nerka. You are repeating this from fish and game as if its gospel while ripping on them for many other reports and research methods. While F&G claimed overescapement as a probable cause, youcalled it THE cause. Big difference there. You must take into consideration that 3 years in a row spawning was very disrupted by natural events; 04 and 05 drought caused water temperatures too high for spawning and egg fecundity, as well as low water that left far less spawning habitat than normal, and 06 a massive flood wiped out the spawning beds. So if those 3 years did not produce big returns it cant be blamed solely upon over escapement, which is what you did.

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    Default Excellent point...

    Thank you will for pointing that important difference out, as well as the other factors that likely contributed to the low returns.

    Like the global warming issue, the "data" and evidence is carefully selected to support the position desired, while other important data is ignored and/or hidden.



    Quote Originally Posted by willphish4food View Post
    seems like you are cherry picking, Nerka. You are repeating this from fish and game as if its gospel while ripping on them for many other reports and research methods. While F&G claimed overescapement as a probable cause, youcalled it THE cause. Big difference there. You must take into consideration that 3 years in a row spawning was very disrupted by natural events; 04 and 05 drought caused water temperatures too high for spawning and egg fecundity, as well as low water that left far less spawning habitat than normal, and 06 a massive flood wiped out the spawning beds. So if those 3 years did not produce big returns it cant be blamed solely upon over escapement, which is what you did.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    Quote Originally Posted by willphish4food View Post
    While F&G claimed overescapement as a probable cause, you called it THE cause...So if those 3 years did not produce big returns it cant be blamed solely upon over escapement, which is what you did.
    No, that is not what Nerka did.

    He said poor returns following large escapements were due to overescapement impacts and the list goes on. Additionally, he went on to say it is a probable cause.

    "They leave out important data, do not discuss errors in counting, do not point out deska poor returns following large escapements were due to overescapement impacts and the list goes on." - Nerka

    "ADF&G own reports on the Deska point this out as a probable cause." - Nerka

    Obviously, as Nerka candidly pointed out, ADFG left out a whole lot of important and pertinent information - after all, that article was just a news release, not a detailed scientific report.

    tvfinak and willphish4food, I'm not sure why you would suggest and support unknown theories and what-if's while rejecting the vital data and information we do know. I can only assume you immediately reject the possibility of overescapements causing poor returns because you have a giant lack of understanding of UCI fisheries. Or perhaps your desire to push blame elsewhere is so strong you can't think rationally about the facts. I certainly find your arguments toward a seasoned UCI biologist to be quite amateur. After all, if you found this news release to be complete of the situation, then clearly you are uninformed.


    Derby06, you are welcome to condone trolls, liars, and thread-spoilers, and even join them as you have here. And you are certainly welcome to report any of my comments you want. Most here know I call a spade a spade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Funstastic View Post
    Derby06, you are welcome to condone trolls, liars, and thread-spoilers, and even join them as you have here. And you are certainly welcome to report any of my comments you want. Most here know I call a spade a spade.
    To clear this up.
    I did not condone anyone, I simply called a spade a spade. You told folks to report tvfinak's post that you felt were against rules, so I pointed out your own rule violations, which by the way are abundant. Nothing more nothing less.

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    Default not quite...

    Nerka states issues with the report including that the ADF&G "do not point out deska poor returns following large escapements were due to overescapement impacts" and "the list goes on". The issues with the report "go on" - "ADFG left out a whole lot of important and pertinent information" - not the factors in the poor returns. Obviously Nerka could have stated the sentence more clearly.

    He goes on further to state that the "ADF&G own reports on the Deska point this out as a probable cause." That is a ADF&G statement to support Nerka's stated opinion that the poor returns were caused by "overescapement impacts"

    MOST IMPORTANT - whether it be escapements or "climate change" - the data must be there to support the conclusion. Claiming that something is fact just isn't correct regardless of the author's knowledge and position on the subject. Medicine is a great example- look how many times accepted knowledge by highly educated and trained authorities has been proven wrong in recent years.


    Quote Originally Posted by Funstastic View Post
    No, that is not what Nerka did.

    He said poor returns following large escapements were due to overescapement impacts and the list goes on. Additionally, he went on to say it is a probable cause.

    "They leave out important data, do not discuss errors in counting, do not point out deska poor returns following large escapements were due to overescapement impacts and the list goes on." - Nerka

    "ADF&G own reports on the Deska point this out as a probable cause." - Nerka

    Obviously, as Nerka candidly pointed out, ADFG left out a whole lot of important and pertinent information - after all, that article was just a news release, not a detailed scientific report.

    tvfinak and willphish4food, I'm not sure why you would suggest and support unknown theories and what-if's while rejecting the vital data and information we do know. I can only assume you immediately reject the possibility of overescapements causing poor returns because you have a giant lack of understanding of UCI fisheries. Or perhaps your desire to push blame elsewhere is so strong you can't think rationally about the facts. I certainly find your arguments toward a seasoned UCI biologist to be quite amateur. After all, if you found this news release to be complete of the situation, then clearly you are uninformed.


    Derby06, you are welcome to condone trolls, liars, and thread-spoilers, and even join them as you have here. And you are certainly welcome to report any of my comments you want. Most here know I call a spade a spade.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    Fun, i'd like to see Nerka's answer. I am not the one leaving out information and ignoring data. Anyone who discounts natural events as causing or greatly contributing to poor returns is delusional or blinded by agenda or directed by a puppetmaster. Weather conditions and water levels and temperatures those three years are indisputable; effects on salmon spawning and egg/ smolt survival under similar conditions are well documented. Why do F&G, Nerka and you discount these as being important and instead lay the blame on overescapement?

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    Default me?

    If you are addressing me - I am absolutely not blaming the poor returns on overescapement!

    I was just trying to clarify that Nerka WAS apparently blaming the poor returns on overescapement and ignoring the other important factors that you brought up.
    Quote Originally Posted by willphish4food View Post
    Fun, i'd like to see Nerka's answer. I am not the one leaving out information and ignoring data. Anyone who discounts natural events as causing or greatly contributing to poor returns is delusional or blinded by agenda or directed by a puppetmaster. Weather conditions and water levels and temperatures those three years are indisputable; effects on salmon spawning and egg/ smolt survival under similar conditions are well documented. Why do F&G, Nerka and you discount these as being important and instead lay the blame on overescapement?
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    Quote Originally Posted by willphish4food View Post
    Fun, i'd like to see Nerka's answer. I am not the one leaving out information and ignoring data. Anyone who discounts natural events as causing or greatly contributing to poor returns is delusional or blinded by agenda or directed by a puppetmaster. Weather conditions and water levels and temperatures those three years are indisputable; effects on salmon spawning and egg/ smolt survival under similar conditions are well documented. Why do F&G, Nerka and you discount these as being important and instead lay the blame on overescapement?
    Because you do not understand how the Ricker curve works willphish4food you have come to a wrong conclusion. Density independent factors play on the left side of the curve and density dependent factors play on the right side of the curve. So with large escapements one is looking at density dependent impacts. The curve is an average of observations not a single year. So the data points are pretty clear on the Deska. Water levels impact rearing space which is then directly related to density of fish for example that can be supported. Put a large number of fish in a small area and they starve is a density dependent impact. So I would suggest if you want to discuss science of this you read about production curves and try to understand them and then ask questions. I have no problem with your question I do have a issue with your delusional comment as it shows your ignorance of the subject and is personal.

    Relative to tvfinak comment on data it is obvious he has not read a report on this and assumes one is just stating a conclusion. Not so tvfinak but I suspect nothing less from you - trolling again and frankly you are getting old in your posts. Provide something useful or go home.

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