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Thread: I cannabuhlèbit

  1. #1
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    Default I cannabuhlèbit

    Today, this very day, I happened by and it caught my eye, a 1 lb jug of Black mz.

    FOR NINE NINTY FIVE. WHUT is THET? Who cares for that price? What would EKC do?

    Anyway, I bought it but not without a careful reading of the wording on the jug, "Black Powder Substitute, Clean Burning, Dependable Ignition, Virtually Non-Corrosive.

    I tried some, 10 shots, or so, with this stuff in my Side lock ML, the one EKC gave me, patch and RB. This, after shooting the same number of rounds with good ole BP.

    #11 caps seemed to set it off reliably.

    I didn't even know this powder existed, so have been searching the Internet for info. Most of what I find is related to use in In-Lines, and I have no use for same, or powders for same.

    What can you guys tell me about this stuff in a gun like mine?

    I preaciate it.
    Smitty of the North
    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
    You can't out-give God.

  2. #2

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    There was a pretty thorough write-up from users a few weeks back at The Muzzleloading Forum. Their results were essentially what you're reporting. That's a real traditional site and lots of hineys were chapped, but it's hard to argue with something cheaper than black powder AND doesn't require all the hazmat rigamarole to get it to stores. I'm betting it will be around a while and more popular as guys try it. I haven't got there yet, but will do so when it appears on a local store shelf.
    "Lay in the weeds and wait, and when you get your chance to say something, say something good."
    Merle Haggard

  3. #3

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    Huh? What's it called? Smitty I'm thinking they snuck one in on me. Heck if it goes boom and sends the round ball where its posed to go for $10 bucks a pound...I'm all ears. I done got rid of the last of my inlines. They ruin the whole Davey Crockett aspect of using a front stuffer. However there ain't nothing he man about shooting powder that's smells like a rotten egg fart every time you light one off. Who makes the stuff? I'm game for giving it a try for $10 a lb.

  4. #4

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    I went to the thread on that other site I mentioned. These guys are all experienced traditional muzzleloader users. Here are some their comments:

    I use BlackMZ in 25 and 30 caliber cap locks with great success and superb competitive accuracy. Grain size is not an issue--just volume BP measure it and enjoy it.
    i'm a confirmed long time user of Black MZ powder. But i've never used it in a small caliber gun.
    Contrary to the snarly remarks from those who have never used Black MZ; it is a very good powder.
    BTW: i detest so called "real" blackpowder in all of it's cruddy forms.
    I had never used anything but Goex for 40 yrs until a little while back, about 6 mos ago, I picked up a pound of Black MZ at the Sportsmans Warehouse for $9.99 ! to try in my .40 cal. I went back and bought ten more. I love the stuff. A lot less fouling and it'll put a ball upside a tree rats head just as good as Goex will. You absolutely cannot beat the price unless you can locate a five finger discount somewhere.
    It has it's advantages and disadvantages..
    Some of the dis advantages are:
    It has a very large grain size making it difficult to meter.
    It is harder to ignite than BP
    The smoke is toxic, and smells weird.
    Does not work in flintlocks.
    Does not clean easily with water.
    The hard fouling that accumulates from repeated shooting (crud ring) can be difficult to remove.

    Some of advantages are:
    It has much less accumulated fouling.
    It is the least corrosive of all the BP substitutes.
    It works great in cartridges.
    "Lay in the weeds and wait, and when you get your chance to say something, say something good."
    Merle Haggard

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmerkeithclone View Post
    Huh? What's it called? Smitty I'm thinking they snuck one in on me. Heck if it goes boom and sends the round ball where its posed to go for $10 bucks a pound...I'm all ears. I done got rid of the last of my inlines. They ruin the whole Davey Crockett aspect of using a front stuffer. However there ain't nothing he man about shooting powder that's smells like a rotten egg fart every time you light one off. Who makes the stuff? I'm game for giving it a try for $10 a lb.
    It's made by Alliant. Been out for a few years, apparently.

    I am shocked at the price. Heard it as more on one of the Websites I visited. I even looked for the receipt to make sure, but can't find it. I was wondering if SW was trying to get rid of it. I never saw it before.

    SOTN
    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
    You can't out-give God.

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    I was hoping you would weigh in on this, BB:

    I'm not short of BP. I like that stuff, and am sort of a purist with it.

    I was attracted to this Blackmz by the price. AND what it said on the container, "Dependable Ignition".

    I am testing BP loads using .010 thick patches for easy loading in my 50 cal. I depend on the powder charge expand the bullet enough to make it tight enough.

    When I tried the Blackmz, it didn't seem to be quite as accurate as the BP.

    BUT, when I tried it with TIGHT patches, it improved.

    Granted, my testing was EXTREMELY limited, and therefore inconclusive, but Alliant suggests 100 grains for a best charge. ???

    I noticed, at 75 grains which I was using, the sound was different. Maybe, not so loud. ??

    You make some interesting points which I'll keep in mind.

    It lights fine with #11 caps, and that's a necessity, for me, and if that proves to be the case every time, it's at least another option. I don't like Pyrodex, or Triple 7. I haven't tried any of the other substitutes.

    Thanks
    SOTN
    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
    You can't out-give God.

  7. #7
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    My biggest gripe with BP guns is trying to quickly reload after the first shot. It seems to me the fouling ( and all I use is pyrodex and seven pellets ) makes it rather challenging to ram a second bullet in at times when you are in a rush. I carry a brass brush and mop for my 50 cal and usually give it a stroke or two with the brass brush before attempting to reload if I am not in a hurry.
    How has it affected reloading Smitty?
    When asked what state I live in I say "The State of Confusion", better known as IL....

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokey View Post
    My biggest gripe with BP guns is trying to quickly reload after the first shot. It seems to me the fouling ( and all I use is pyrodex and seven pellets ) makes it rather challenging to ram a second bullet in at times when you are in a rush.
    What are you using for lube?

    I've found those issues are virtually nill with a lube that keeps the fouling softer. My favorites are grease-types, whether self-made or bought. As much as I'm proud to make my own, I've found the Mink Oil Tallow from Track of the Wolf to be the best of the best. It keeps a usable texture over a wider range of air temps than anything I've concocted. Depending on proportions of bear oil to deer tallow, mine's either too soft in summer or too hard in winter, so I have to use harder and softer versions depending on time of year. The TOW tallow has been fine for me from 15 degrees to 75 degrees, the limits of hot or cold I've had around here. It's still going strong at those temps, so I'd expect it to keep working colder and warmer.

    Meanwhile it goes on patches easy and keeps fouling soft for easy loading. My concoction does the same, with the limits I described.

    Confounding as it may be, I've found that loose patch/ball combos result in harder loading, too. It appears that with a thinner patch the first loading is easy, but fouling builds up fast and impedes loading subsequent shots because the patch isn't doing such a good job of "scraping" the soft fouling off each time you load. My preferred combo is a slightly smaller ball with a thick, stiff patch. For example, range shooting with wet swabbing to clean the bore between shots, my 54 Lyman GPR 54 cal is most accurate with a .535 ball and .018 patch. But for multiple shots without swabbing in the field, loading is easiest with a .530 ball and .022 patch. I've tried .535 with .010 patches and .530 with .010 patches, and fouling builds fast and loading gets hard without the swabbing between shots.

    Using a loading block for the patched balls, I can reload in about 15 seconds in the field, and can't seem to get any faster. But that feels pretty darned fast at the time. Lotta elbows flying while I'm doing it, but I getter done.
    "Lay in the weeds and wait, and when you get your chance to say something, say something good."
    Merle Haggard

  9. #9

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    BTW-

    For range shooting, it's hard to beat some of the liquid lubes for keeping fouling soft. Spit on a patch is a traditional favorite dating back hundreds of years, but there are lots of products made specifically for lube too. There are also guys who use Windex, windshield washer fluid, even Gojo hand cleaner for patch lube. Lotta guys use plain olive oil, but there are folks who prefer avacado or walnut oil. They all help keep fouling nice and soft for easy loading.

    My problem with the liquid or oil lubes for hunting is you have that moisture or oil sitting right on your powder for hours or days on end before you finally fire a shot. I'll stick with grease or tallow as the best of both worlds for keeping fouling soft while not messing with the powder after long hours- another formula that's worked for hundreds of years.
    "Lay in the weeds and wait, and when you get your chance to say something, say something good."
    Merle Haggard

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
    What are you using for lube?

    I've found those issues are virtually nill with a lube that keeps the fouling softer. My favorites are grease-types, whether self-made or bought. As much as I'm proud to make my own, I've found the Mink Oil Tallow from Track of the Wolf to be the best of the best. It keeps a usable texture over a wider range of air temps than anything I've concocted. Depending on proportions of bear oil to deer tallow, mine's either too soft in summer or too hard in winter, so I have to use harder and softer versions depending on time of year. The TOW tallow has been fine for me from 15 degrees to 75 degrees, the limits of hot or cold I've had around here. It's still going strong at those temps, so I'd expect it to keep working colder and warmer.

    Meanwhile it goes on patches easy and keeps fouling soft for easy loading. My concoction does the same, with the limits I described.

    Confounding as it may be, I've found that loose patch/ball combos result in harder loading, too. It appears that with a thinner patch the first loading is easy, but fouling builds up fast and impedes loading subsequent shots because the patch isn't doing such a good job of "scraping" the soft fouling off each time you load. My preferred combo is a slightly smaller ball with a thick, stiff patch. For example, range shooting with wet swabbing to clean the bore between shots, my 54 Lyman GPR 54 cal is most accurate with a .535 ball and .018 patch. But for multiple shots without swabbing in the field, loading is easiest with a .530 ball and .022 patch. I've tried .535 with .010 patches and .530 with .010 patches, and fouling builds fast and loading gets hard without the swabbing between shots.

    Using a loading block for the patched balls, I can reload in about 15 seconds in the field, and can't seem to get any faster. But that feels pretty darned fast at the time. Lotta elbows flying while I'm doing it, but I getter done.
    I am shooting Hornady SST Sabots and TC Sabots so its plastic cup is the bearing surface...
    When asked what state I live in I say "The State of Confusion", better known as IL....

  11. #11

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    Yeah. but he was asking about using patched round balls.

    My experience with sabots and any powder I've tried has been that I REALLY needed to swab the bore between shots, or loading got tough in a hurry. I fixed that by putting a felt wad lubed with Mink Oil tallow between the powder and the sabot. Fouling was soft and on one occasion I fired 20 shots in a row without swabbing and no loading difficulties. I don't recall hearing about such a thing with sabots, but most guys fire them once or twice and call it a day. I'm more inclined to 40 or 50 shots in a day.
    "Lay in the weeds and wait, and when you get your chance to say something, say something good."
    Merle Haggard

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokey View Post
    My biggest gripe with BP guns is trying to quickly reload after the first shot. It seems to me the fouling ( and all I use is pyrodex and seven pellets ) makes it rather challenging to ram a second bullet in at times when you are in a rush. I carry a brass brush and mop for my 50 cal and usually give it a stroke or two with the brass brush before attempting to reload if I am not in a hurry.
    How has it affected reloading Smitty?
    I've gotten into the habit of cleaning/damp patching between shots, and with the mz, there is much less fouling on the patch.

    I don't use heavy charges like you guys are talking about, but Shucky Gee, using reg. ole Goex BP, I can go 5 shots before loading starts to getting harder. In fact, when I was shooting matches with the beeg boys, that's how I did it.

    I started the cleaning after each shot for SAFETY reasons. I was told that there could be burning embers left in the barrel, and I didn't wanna pour powder on them.

    Also, for more consistency. If I was hunting I'd probably go with 90 grains, but now I use 75.

    SOTN
    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
    You can't out-give God.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
    What are you using for lube?


    Confounding as it may be, I've found that loose patch/ball combos result in harder loading, too. It appears that with a thinner patch the first loading is easy, but fouling builds up fast and impedes loading subsequent shots because the patch isn't doing such a good job of "scraping" the soft fouling off each time you load. My preferred combo is a slightly smaller ball with a thick, stiff patch. For example, range shooting with wet swabbing to clean the bore between shots, my 54 Lyman GPR 54 cal is most accurate with a .535 ball and .018 patch. But for multiple shots without swabbing in the field, loading is easiest with a .530 ball and .022 patch. I've tried .535 with .010 patches and .530 with .010 patches, and fouling builds fast and loading gets hard without the swabbing between shots.
    That's mighty interesting BB.

    Although, I haven't noticed anything like that from using loose patches, I shall keep that in mind. I can see how it could cause more, and possibly even harder fouling.

    I may relegate the loose patch to fast 2nd shots. I want something I can start without a short starter.

    Smitty of the North
    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
    You can't out-give God.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokey View Post
    I am shooting Hornady SST Sabots and TC Sabots so its plastic cup is the bearing surface...
    Three years ago I had several deprivation tags to fill when late muzzleloader season rolled around. I was using a CVA Optima MR Black Nitride. The latest and greatest of everything. I had cleaned the bore squeaky clean before loading the gun that morning and was ready for the hunt. Shortly after daylight here they came just like clock work. I let several little ones pass then shot an average size doe. The rest all ran off but one and it hung up at 60-70 yards snorting and stomping it's feet. So I reloaded and it to every bit of effort that I could muster to get that second sabot down the pipe. I was shooting Knight sabots which tend to run a bit tighter than most other sabots. I finally got it all of the way down with out making too much comotion and shot the second doe which weighed more than most bucks. I hit here good but she thrashed around and flipped and flopped and tried to get back up so I loaded up a third time. This time I had to turn the gun upside down and hammer the ram rod on the platform of my stand in order to get the bullet seated. When I did that two more deer ran off from slightly behind me. The wind was right so allof the sent was being blown out into an open field and the deer had no idea where the shot was coming from. Some of them ran off and others followed but some of the stragglers weren't convinced of which direction to go and were still hanging around. However the banging the ramrod on the stand to seat the bullet cleared all of that up and none of them had to wonder where I was hiding any longer. I am pretty sure that had I been shooting a side hammer that I could have killed yet another. I can load my side hammer gun in half the time as it takes to fiddle fart around with pellets and then have to dig the spent shotgun primer out with a knife. For hunting for just one deer and where the shots are going to be over 100 yards then the inline beats the side hammer every time. But when your hunting yarded deer where there are apt to be 30 or more sets of ears and eyes looking for blaze orange nikumpoops on the ground then sitting still in the tree and loading as quietly as possible will often let you fill tags all morning or until you give yourself away as I did with my inline.

    I just reread what I wrote and it sounded like I was dissing on your method of take Smokey. I have seen pictures of the deer heads on your walls. That trophy hunting is way different than most of my hunting and i would imagine your shots are a lot longer than mine. I hunt an area next to Jacob Krum Nature Preserve. Every year the DNR guys come out and evaluate the crop damage and then give my buddy Bill 20-30 tags to be filled durying any season I choose. I have seen as many as 80 deer feeding in his corn field right next to the preserve during late winter yard up. I'm probably the only guy on this forum that has three TC White Mountain carbines and there are times that I have had all three of them up in the tree with me.

    Problem is that my hands are getting tired and skinning all of those deer and cutting all that firewood( I have to heat my shop to keep hanging deer from freezing solid) has taken it's toll. Thus neither one is as much fun as it used to be.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    I may relegate the loose patch to fast 2nd shots. I want something I can start without a short starter.
    There ya go.
    "Lay in the weeds and wait, and when you get your chance to say something, say something good."
    Merle Haggard

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    BB I never thought about putting a lubed patch twixt the powder and sabot may have to play with that. I seldom shoot more than 100 grns of powder so got plenty of room and psi to spare...
    EKC I would est most of my deer shots are between 25 and 75 yards - so one shot is all I have ever needed, I can't recall ever shooting the same deer twice except'n one time on a hard running shot I hit a deer that was driven to me and broke a leg, that took two shots! However, when your try'n to decimate a herd I think I would leave the BP gun at home and grab a good semi auto 12 or 20 with slugs, or I have taken both to a stand at times when culling myself!
    When asked what state I live in I say "The State of Confusion", better known as IL....

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokey View Post
    BB I never thought about putting a lubed patch twixt the powder and sabot may have to play with that. I seldom shoot more than 100 grns of powder so got plenty of room and psi to spare...
    EKC I would est most of my deer shots are between 25 and 75 yards - so one shot is all I have ever needed, I can't recall ever shooting the same deer twice except'n one time on a hard running shot I hit a deer that was driven to me and broke a leg, that took two shots! However, when your try'n to decimate a herd I think I would leave the BP gun at home and grab a good semi auto 12 or 20 with slugs, or I have taken both to a stand at times when culling myself!
    It was muzzleloader season. I could hunt shotgun season but the deer are so nerved from there being blaze orange behind every horse weed in the state. I am usually at my lease during shotgun season running trespassers off. I hate Iowa slug season with a passion. If they all hunted like you and I it would be no problem. I find several dead deer every year that didn't fall down and die on the spot so no effort is made to recover them and irks me to no end.

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