Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 28

Thread: MSY vs MEY (max economic yield)

  1. #1
    Member fishNphysician's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Aberdeen WA
    Posts
    4,516
    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
    http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/uploads/UP12710.jpg
    The KeenEye MD

  2. #2

    Default

    Medred is not exactly a friend of the commercial fishing industry but the statistics are interesting. Sure, a few are cherry picked but I found it interesting the number of guides on the Kenai and how private angler effort far exceeds guided effort. It's funny how people will scream guides need to be limited to ease crowding. If you want to truly reduce crowding on the river all user groups need to be curtailed.

  3. #3

    Default MSY vs MEY (max economic yield)

    Cherry picked numbers? How about complete crap numbers! 7 out of 8 killed in gillnets? Please reference your sources Mr. Penn-I mean Medred.

    The tourism industry on the Kenai is alive and well. This year is expected to break records. The quality guide outfits that I know have mostly told me they have had great years lately, and have diversified away from just Kenai Kings. Thank goodness - Medred is writing like he wants the in river king madness of the early-2000's back. Clearly he's high.

    Obviously he would prefer to talk economics because those numbers are the only thing easier to manipulate than escapement/harvest statistics - which he illustrates perfectly by comparing the dockside value (wholesale, no economic multiplier) of commercially harvested fish to what tourists spend to catch them. Would love to blow apart more of his numbers but why - he's clearly sold himself out to the Penney/Gease crew, and my fingers are getting cold.



    Penguin, your point about guides and crowding is valid. At least guides carpool. I've always felt that there should be just enough guided activity that it's annoying to private anglers. What we had on the Lower Kenai in the early 2000's was simply ridiculous.

    I think the best plan economically speaking is to have a diverse base - something the peninsula has both in our industries and our fisheries. Medred and his crew are trying to consolidate, and that's bad for nearly everyone.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  4. #4
    Member FishGod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Fishing your hole before you get there
    Posts
    1,948

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by smithtb View Post
    Cherry picked numbers? How about complete crap numbers! 7 out of 8 killed in gillnets? Please reference your sources Mr. Penn-I mean Medred.

    The tourism industry on the Kenai is alive and well. This year is expected to break records. The quality guide outfits that I know have mostly told me they have had great years lately, and have diversified away from just Kenai Kings. Thank goodness - Medred is writing like he wants the in river king madness of the early-2000's back. Clearly he's high.

    Obviously he would prefer to talk economics because those numbers are the only thing easier to manipulate than escapement/harvest statistics - which he illustrates perfectly by comparing the dockside value (wholesale, no economic multiplier) of commercially harvested fish to what tourists spend to catch them. Would love to blow apart more of his numbers but why - he's clearly sold himself out to the Penney/Gease crew, and my fingers are getting cold.



    Penguin, your point about guides and crowding is valid. At least guides carpool. I've always felt that there should be just enough guided activity that it's annoying to private anglers. What we had on the Lower Kenai in the early 2000's was simply ridiculous.

    I think the best plan economically speaking is to have a diverse base - something the peninsula has both in our industries and our fisheries. Medred and his crew are trying to consolidate, and that's bad for nearly everyone.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Sorry, I didn't read a word you typed. I was too busy envisioning myself in your boots drinking that beer and waiting for a take down!
    Your bait stinks and your boat is ugly

  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, Washington
    Posts
    1,210

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by smithtb View Post
    Cherry picked numbers? How about complete crap numbers! 7 out of 8 killed in gillnets? Please reference your sources Mr. Penn-I mean Medred.

    The tourism industry on the Kenai is alive and well. This year is expected to break records. The quality guide outfits that I know have mostly told me they have had great years lately, and have diversified away from just Kenai Kings. Thank goodness - Medred is writing like he wants the in river king madness of the early-2000's back. Clearly he's high.

    Obviously he would prefer to talk economics because those numbers are the only thing easier to manipulate than escapement/harvest statistics - which he illustrates perfectly by comparing the dockside value (wholesale, no economic multiplier) of commercially harvested fish to what tourists spend to catch them. Would love to blow apart more of his numbers but why - he's clearly sold himself out to the Penney/Gease crew, and my fingers are getting cold.



    Penguin, your point about guides and crowding is valid. At least guides carpool. I've always felt that there should be just enough guided activity that it's annoying to private anglers. What we had on the Lower Kenai in the early 2000's was simply ridiculous.

    I think the best plan economically speaking is to have a diverse base - something the peninsula has both in our industries and our fisheries. Medred and his crew are trying to consolidate, and that's bad for nearly everyone.


    TB - PBR!? Really? PBR??? How about an Alaskan Amber? Or perhaps something local. Remember, you have reputation to uphold.......

  6. #6

    Default

    I drink for max economic yield...

  7. #7
    Member fishNphysician's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Aberdeen WA
    Posts
    4,516

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by smithtb View Post
    I drink for max economic yield...

    I wish I could do that. I'd have WAY more to spend on fishin' stuff

    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
    http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/uploads/UP12710.jpg
    The KeenEye MD

  8. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,529

    Default

    What you get with a so called journalist trying to be an economic expert is a piece of junk science. What one gets is an allocation piece driven by who do you think? Bob Penney and of course the quotes are economic expert Ricky Gease and a guide who may or may not represent the industry. Notice Craig did not quote anyone from ISER of UAA who have studied this question and commented to the Legislature on how Gease and others are misusing economic data. Notice how Craig did not mention that the commercial fishery brings new money to the State and while the tourism industry does the same it does so at a much lower level. Notice how Craig quotes the value of a chinook but not the loss of sockeye harvest and the economic consequences of that loss to the State and local communities. The list goes on and on why this piece should be thrown in the trash can.

    Just a final note. Sport Fish Division is paying for economic studies when programs that help manage the resource with on ground surveys, weirs, juvenile studies of chinook in the Kenai, carrying capacity evaluations, and others go unfunded. That is the problem with ADF&G Sport Fish Division. They have their priorities wrong. Economic studies do nothing to help the resource. They are only good for allocation fights and trying to shore up a budget by saying " See how valuable we are". That has historically not played well in getting money.

  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Southcentral Alaska
    Posts
    567

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    What you get with a so called journalist trying to be an economic expert is a piece of junk science.
    While that may be true, there are many journalists who are not transparently pursuing an agenda who would do a much better job of presenting current knowledge on the subject. Popular science usually includes flaws in fact, but it doesn't have to be the propaganda that we see here.

  10. #10

    Default

    I try not to take economic advice from people who ask for handouts for a living.

    Pretty telling that Craig won't even defend the first sentence of his article. 7 out of 8 Kenai Kings killed were NOT killed in gillnets last year. I've tried to figure out how on earth one could get to this figure (like if he included all Kodiak gillnet harvest or something), but cannot. I think it was simply made up - either by the author or his quoted economic expert, who coincidentally also asks for handouts for a living - most recently in the form of a new tax on local sport fishermen.

    Craig, my tip meter is bottomed out and my B.S. meter is pegged. You'd think someone concerned about small details such as who discovered which species of trout would use accurate harvest and economic data in their blogs.

  11. #11
    Member cdubbin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    KP, the dingleberry of Alaska
    Posts
    1,751

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    Notice Craig did not quote anyone from ISER of UAA who have studied this question and commented to the Legislature on how Gease and others are misusing economic data. Notice how Craig did not mention that the commercial fishery brings new money to the State and while the tourism industry does the same it does so at a much lower level.
    Thats an interesting point in that IIRC, it was Gunnar Knapp who stated that the economic contribution of sport fishing in the Cook Inlet region to be four and a half times that of commercial: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...-wMYnHtPlO_cTA
    " Gas boats are bad enough, autos are an invention of the devil, and airplanes are worse." ~Allen Hasselborg

  12. #12
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,529

    Default

    Thanks for posting whole report. It does not state 4.5 times. You left out all the qualifiers and that the studies are not comparable. I hope people read and listen to the presentation. It is more complicated than saying one is more valuable than another. That is simplistic and wrong. Both are valuable.

  13. #13

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cdubbin View Post
    Thats an interesting point in that IIRC, it was Gunnar Knapp who stated that the economic contribution of sport fishing in the Cook Inlet region to be four and a half times that of commercial: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...-wMYnHtPlO_cTA
    Did you actually read the presentation? It was all about how hard it is to actually compare this sort of thing and how easily the data can be and was manipulated. Most of Knapp's presentations stress the fact that both fisheries are a major part of the Cook Inlet Region's economy. Because Gunnar Knapp is actually an economist rather than a hack blogger looking for donors. Turns out there's room in the middle, man.

  14. #14
    Member cdubbin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    KP, the dingleberry of Alaska
    Posts
    1,751

    Default

    Uh, yeah, I've read the presentation, that's why I posted it....I get that it's not hard and fast statistics but more points of discussion. A few grains of sand in the mandala of Alaska's fishing debate, if you will.....carry on
    " Gas boats are bad enough, autos are an invention of the devil, and airplanes are worse." ~Allen Hasselborg

  15. #15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cdubbin View Post
    Uh, yeah, I've read the presentation, that's why I posted it....I get that it's not hard and fast statistics but more points of discussion. A few grains of sand in the mandala of Alaska's fishing debate, if you will.....carry on
    Then you realize his statement you referenced was qualified by stating "If we assume that the Sport Fishing Report's estimates of angler expenditures for Cook Inlet fisheries are correct, then...", and that most of his presentation was dedicated to showing how poor and flawed the data in the sportfish report actually was.

  16. #16
    Member cdubbin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    KP, the dingleberry of Alaska
    Posts
    1,751

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by smithtb View Post
    Then you realize his statement you referenced was qualified by stating "If we assume that the Sport Fishing Report's estimates of angler expenditures for Cook Inlet fisheries are correct, then...", and that most of his presentation was dedicated to showing how poor and flawed the data in the sportfish report actually was.

    You're cherry picking...from page 27: "How accurate and reliable are the estimates???"....."Numerous assumptions mean that estimates for both fisheries are approximate at best. No reason to assume that either study's assumptions are more or less reliable."

    In other words, ADFG sportfish is no more (or less) likely to lie than the commercial processing industry...that's the gist of the presentation....
    " Gas boats are bad enough, autos are an invention of the devil, and airplanes are worse." ~Allen Hasselborg

  17. #17

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cdubbin View Post
    You're cherry picking...from page 27: "How accurate and reliable are the estimates???"....."Numerous assumptions mean that estimates for both fisheries are approximate at best. No reason to assume that either study's assumptions are more or less reliable."

    In other words, ADFG sportfish is no more (or less) likely to lie than the commercial processing industry...that's the gist of the presentation....
    Right. And you're not cherry-picking, seeing as how also on page 27, under the sportfish estimate of direct sales he has "Potential large margin for error" and "Potential for biased estimates", while under the commfish report, "Not perfect but reasonably reliable". He also points out that the sportfish report contained sportfish related sales in Cook Inlet for fishing which occurred elsewhere in the state. In other words every dollar spent in Anchorage before going on a fishing trip in BFE was tallied as a sportfish contribution for Cook Inlet. If I remember correctly, dollars spent on riverfront homes were also included...

    I won't continue to go tit-for-tat on this report, taking Mr. Knapp's work out of context. Anyone who cares has already read the presentation and gets my point. Both industries are important and hard to compare - that is the big take-away from this presentation.

  18. #18
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,529

    Default

    'Cause the marching band tried to take the field
    The players refused to yield
    Do you recall what was revealed
    The day the salmon died?

    Some may know what the modified lyric came from. Anyone want to say which one.

  19. #19
    Member hoose35's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Soldotna, Alaska, United States
    Posts
    2,891

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    'Cause the marching band tried to take the field
    The players refused to yield
    Do you recall what was revealed
    The day the salmon died?

    Some may know what the modified lyric came from. Anyone want to say which one.
    Bye bye miss American Pie

    Sent from my HTC One A9 using Tapatalk
    Responsible Conservation > Political Allocation

  20. #20

    Default MSY vs MEY (max economic yield)

    I drove my Chevy to Skilak last weekend and while it's not yet dry we could sure use some rain...



Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •