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Thread: New Unit 13 Tier II Caribou regulations

  1. #1

    Default New Unit 13 Tier II Caribou regulations

    Is anyone as disappointed as I am to see the new Unit 13 Tier II Caribou regulations that require you salvage the head, hide, and kidneys, and keep the meat attached to bone including the ribs until transported from the field?

    Salvage the head? Hide? Kidneys? Salvage means harvest for human consumption, so what are we supposed to do, suck the brains out of the eye ball sockets while playing savage drum music? Salvage the hide? The caribou hide slips when tanned because the hair is hollow. Kidneys are not fit for human consumption.

    These new Unit 13 Tier II caribou regulations are arbitrary and capricious, ambiguous, and do not further herd management objectives. No other hunt in Alaska has such requirements, and never have. They deny equal protections of the law, and they infringe and destroy long time customary and traditional subsistence uses.

    I encourage everyone to NOT abide by these ridiculous and damaging regulations. The ADFG must be stopped when damaging and destroying fundamental constitutionally protected subsistence use rights! DO NOT follow these foolish regulations! PROTEST! Hunters we must stick together to protect and save our rights! CALL, WRITE, EMAIL the ADFG commissioner, the governor, your legislators, do it NOW!

    Does anyone know of any legal court action yet to stop these ridiculous regulations? The Unit 13 Tier II Caribou hunt starts on Aug. 10, 2007.

  2. #2
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskasourdough View Post
    ....Is anyone as disappointed as I am to see the new Unit 13 Tier II Caribou regulations that require you salvage the head, hide, and kidneys, and keep the meat attached to bone including the ribs until transported from the field?.....
    Nope. I'm rather disgusted with many of the other silly changes to TC566, but that isn't one of them.

    It's stupid, but I salvaged everything they wanted, anyway, except the kidneys and sometimes the hide.

    .....These new Unit 13 Tier II caribou regulations are arbitrary and capricious, ambiguous, and do not further herd management objectives.....
    Yup. Downright stupid, in my opinion.

    But my opinion has absolutely no value whatsoever. The proof of that is the absolute lack of any response at all from the Board despite submitting comment and questions nearly every year to game proposals.

    ....I encourage everyone to NOT abide by these ridiculous and damaging regulations.....
    Not me. I fully plan to hunt TC566. If I don't get a permit myself and Mrs. Mark doesn't get one, I suspect my daughter will, and guess who will have to take them out?

    And when we get a caribou, I'm going to photograph the salvaged parts, and send the photo to the Board with a letter. I'd like to explain to the Board that it doesn't matter what stupid games they play. I'll be hunting somewhere, somehow, anyway.

    I can play.

    ....Does anyone know of any legal court action yet to stop these ridiculous regulations? The Unit 13 Tier II Caribou hunt starts on Aug. 10, 2007.....
    This is exactly what the Department feared, and I guess they're wise to worry.

    Somebody will file suit and the court will put an injunction on the hunt. Nobody will hunt this year (and maybe not next year, too), the herd will grow out of control, and everything will be FUBAR.

    Oh, well. I guess that's what we need politicians and courts for...............

  3. #3
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    Savage drum music? Sounds a bit stereotypical to me. I am in complete agreement that the new limitations are more strict and conceptually ridiculous, but I don't believe they are arbitrary at all. Putting income limitatations, or at least having points allotted based on income, is in fact very focused, not arbitrary. I don't have an issue with regulations limiting any sort of 'trophy' status- by forcing antlers to be destroyed, after all, we don't eat the antlers if we are subsistence hunters- however I do concur that the new regulations are rather ridiculous, good thing I prefer moose, deer and sheep over caribou I suppose!!

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    Alaskasourdough, Caribou hide doesn't slip because its hollow, if that was true, there would'nt be many Caribou mounts made! Generally most slippage is due to spoilage.
    Mark, I'm a bit confused, in refering to the BOG, you say your opinion has no value whatsoever. And if you/daugther get a Caribou, why bother to take pictures, and send a letter to the BOG saying you will 'play' their games? I think that will please them.

  5. #5
    Member broncoformudv's Avatar
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    I do not understand the idea behind salvaging the kidneys and head.

    I have to say the hair does not slip if properly cared for in the field. The one I had tanned has been sitting around for the past 15 years without a hair falling out.

    I still think they just need to go back to the drawing system for unit 13. Seemed like everyone was a lot happier back then and the herd was doing good.

  6. #6
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    Now we'll find out the details of the law suit. I don't think this is a surprise to anyone.

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    Game management by politics.

  8. #8
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by DEDWUF View Post
    ......Mark, I'm a bit confused, in refering to the BOG, you say your opinion has no value whatsoever.....
    Over the years I've participated heavily in the BOG proposal system. I've submitted two proposals and commented on many. I always do so by writing.

    I stated that I've never received any response, but that's not really true. One time Mike Fleagal called me to talk, and was supportive of my comments. Other than that, I've never gotten any reply to questions, or comment on my proposals or other input.

    After a while, one gets the feeling that such participation is useless, but I suppose I know better. There are a lot of selfish and stupid proposals that get submitted, and I know it helps the Board members deal with them when they have negative comments on them from the public.

    ...And if you/daugther get a Caribou, why bother to take pictures, and send a letter to the BOG saying you will 'play' their games? I think that will please them.
    I want to make sure they know (and hopefully those who are pushing for access restrictions or exclusive game rights) that all the silly games played will be played. I will hunt. The silly games won't work.

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    Unhappy harvest rules

    AKSD: I can see their reasoning and agree that it does seem more like a subsistence hunt when you are harvesting all the traditional parts (Head cheese, kidney pie, etc.) but my main objection is the rules are biased against walk in hunters (me). A boned out caribou can be packed in one trip. Under the new regulations (head, hide, bones) you would need several other trips and maybe another for your camp. That may lead to spoiled meat for walk in hunters. Or at the very least a lot more work. It will take a lot of attention to temperature and the weather. It is almost forcing you to use a machine....
    I come home with an honestly earned feeling that something good has taken place. It makes no difference whether I got anything, it has to do with how the day was spent. Fred Bear

  10. #10
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sollybug View Post
    ...It is almost forcing you to use a machine....
    ....which are increasingly being banned or restricted.

    The airplane guys don't like the atvs. Neither do the horse wranglers. The boat guys don't like the flyboys landing on their section of the river.

    On and on and on and on.

    Then they submit proposals to the Board to keep the other guy out.

    The folks in the subsistence game pressure to keep themselves in and others out, and the ones who are disenfranchised are pointing out reasons why the ones who are in shouldn't be.

    We're killing each other here, I tell ya'..............

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    Default i can't wait

    until a trooper checks somebody for the kidneys and writes them up when they can't produce them. maybe the stupidity of the whole thing will hit the papers and everybody can see how idiotic our game laws have become.

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    Default Mark,

    I understand the frustration with the BOG, and yes in some years, and for popular units the BOG gets flooded with proposals. I know giving testimony directly to the BOG to back up a written proposal is the best way for an individual to have a chance at getting a proposal passed. (many proposals are very similar). I testifiy mostly when southcentral issues are the BOG's focus, my direct association with the BOG has been mostly since 1991, and beyond when the AC's started up. Thanks for the clarity.
    Last edited by DEDWUF; 07-04-2007 at 07:53. Reason: clarification

  13. #13

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    "License, Registration and proof of Kidney please....what the hell??? Not sure I even know what a kidney looks like. Agree with Sollybug, they're just promoting road hunting which is a whole hornets nest of it's own.

  14. #14
    Member Kurt S's Avatar
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    I gotta tell you, it's rather contradictory. F & G will tell you they would like to make it a drawing hunt and are working toward that goal. Despite what the application says, F & G will tell you to put in anyway as they expect a drawing for the remaining permits after the welfare people get theirs. Sooooooooo, is it a subsistance hunt, a drawing hunt, or HH&G (head hide and gut) hunt? On one hand they are telling me I'm not a subsistance hunter, but IF I get drawn from the pool, do I have to be a subsistance hunter which I wasn't by thier income limit? AND if I am now, then why wasn't I yesterday due to income.

    FUBAR

    Kurt

  15. #15

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    Everybody keeps talking how bad the new regulations are,but how fair and constitutional was the last?Is was wrong then in my opinion.

  16. #16

    Angry Clarifications and more questions

    The new Unit 13 Tier II caribou regulations requiring the head, hide, kidneys, be salvaged from the field, are the first and only requirements of this type, no other Tier II Subsistence hunt, drawing, or harvest tag hunt require such. This is unjustified requirement /burden put only on Unit 13 Tier II hunters, is unequal treatment and protection of the laws. Because we are long time residents and very successful to be in the Tier II permittees, we are thus denied equal rights of other less successful hunters and we cannot hunt for that species anywhere else in the state that regulatory year, must pack out the waste (hide, head, kidneys, bones). No, I will not accept being a "second class hunter" or citizen. I will not play their silly games that diminish my rights and burden my long time hunting traditions and customs, and destroy rights of my grandchildren. Otherwise, If we all did that, we'd still be flying the British flag! And why should we accept having to destroy the trophy value just because we are subsistence hunters? Another deprevation of equal rights! And the biggest bulls have the most meat! After reading the many comments that agree with me, I have decided to file a law suit to STAY the regulations requiring salvaging of the head, hide, kidneys, and bones, and challenge the State ADFG is NOT the property owner of the bagged game, the hunter is, and the State cannot dictate how you are to butcher, transport, cook, or eat your game property. These are fundamental subsistence rights, constitutionally protected, but you only have the rights that you are willing to fight for. Also I will appreciate all the support I can get, so stay in touch! Happy 4th of July to all!

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sollybug View Post
    AKSD: I can see their reasoning and agree that it does seem more like a subsistence hunt when you are harvesting all the traditional parts (Head cheese, kidney pie, etc.) but my main objection is the rules are biased against walk in hunters (me). A boned out caribou can be packed in one trip. Under the new regulations (head, hide, bones) you would need several other trips and maybe another for your camp. That may lead to spoiled meat for walk in hunters. Or at the very least a lot more work. It will take a lot of attention to temperature and the weather. It is almost forcing you to use a machine....
    I agree, I am a walk-in hunter, too. Having to pack out the waste (head, hide, kidneys, bones) will certainly limit how far I am willing to pack, and thus puts an unreasonable burden on foot hunters destroying our long time customary and traditional hunting methods, what I call my Creed, constitutionally protected rights.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by DEDWUF View Post
    Now we'll find out the details of the law suit. I don't think this is a surprise to anyone.
    What law suit are you referring to, is there a new one filed recently concerning the Unit 13 Tier II caribou regulations that require salvaging the waste (head, hide, kidneys, bone)? Please give info if you have it.

  19. #19

    Default Serious???

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskasourdough View Post
    The new Unit 13 Tier II caribou regulations requiring the head, hide, kidneys, be salvaged from the field, are the first and only requirements of this type, no other Tier II Subsistence hunt, drawing, or harvest tag hunt require such. This is unjustified requirement /burden put only on Unit 13 Tier II hunters, is unequal treatment and protection of the laws. Because we are long time residents and very successful to be in the Tier II permittees, we are thus denied equal rights of other less successful hunters and we cannot hunt for that species anywhere else in the state that regulatory year, must pack out the waste (hide, head, kidneys, bones). No, I will not accept being a "second class hunter" or citizen. I will not play their silly games that diminish my rights and burden my long time hunting traditions and customs, and destroy rights of my grandchildren. Otherwise, If we all did that, we'd still be flying the British flag! And why should we accept having to destroy the trophy value just because we are subsistence hunters? Another deprevation of equal rights! And the biggest bulls have the most meat! After reading the many comments that agree with me, I have decided to file a law suit to STAY the regulations requiring salvaging of the head, hide, kidneys, and bones, and challenge the State ADFG is NOT the property owner of the bagged game, the hunter is, and the State cannot dictate how you are to butcher, transport, cook, or eat your game property. These are fundamental subsistence rights, constitutionally protected, but you only have the rights that you are willing to fight for. Also I will appreciate all the support I can get, so stay in touch! Happy 4th of July to all!
    Are you serious about filing a lawsuit? If so post up the details, who is going to represent you, how to contact the atty, etc, etc, I know anyone who takes this step will gain wide support.

  20. #20
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    I'll leave this one alone for the most part, but I have to say (not willingly).... I am sure that there are many others besides myself who wish they could qualify for Tier II and we would not have a problem with these salvage reqs......

    The last thing I want to do is whack a hornets nest...... Just my thoughts.

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