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Thread: Hate to pick at this too much but,

  1. #1
    Member lawdog's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Hate to pick at this too much but,

    I just found this article over the weekend and it really makes me sick how most of the problems up there are self created and then used to make a self serving point. I also have a question about flying a chest freezer into the field and processing the meat there for consumption after it's taken to camp on the bone first. That way the whole lack of meat processing facilities thing in Kotz is bypassed. http://www.wildlifenews.alaska.gov/i...rticles_id=236

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    …..State law does not regulate or restrict the number of transporters or guides that can operate in an area, the number of clients they may place into that area, or the number of animals their clients may take…..
    Isn’t there some sort of zoning for guides so that there aren’t too many in a particular area? Maybe it’s time to do so with transporters.

    ….However, unlike transporters, guides are required by law to share responsibility with their clients for seeing that meat is brought out along with the antlers…….

    …..Unfortunately, there is also the meat that is found tossed in the dumpsters of local Kotzebue businesses, left to rot on wooden pallets on the tarmac, hung in shipping vans with no air circulation, or found hidden in the bushes outside of town. Local residents have reported seeing hunters and transporters tossing unwanted meat into the ocean or nearby lagoons.

    And while some hunters were never interested in keeping the meat, those that do face the dilemma that there are no freezers or meat processing services available in Kotzebue, and their flight home may not be for several days…..
    This is simply an example of a lack of enforcement. Enforcement can simply hang out at the airport comparing meat (or meat transfer documents) to antlers.

    ….. The Northwest Arctic Borough wants to see a greater law enforcement presence during the hunting season, but the number of available troopers is limited. “Enforcement is the key,” said Schaeffer. Despite being spread thin across the state, the troopers plan to have a greater presence this hunting season……
    By dinging those who waste meat (already a crime) pressure will decrease. At least the repeat operators will be put out of business.

    ….. Reputable guides and transporters manage to get meat back to Kotzebue or nearby villages in good condition, and within minutes an announcement goes out on local radio that there is meat for the taking. There are local Inupiat without a hunter in the family who are grateful for the free meat—even though they are baffled why someone would shoot a moose for any reason other than meat. “Not all of us think this is a bad thing,” said an elderly woman picking up some meat. Additionally, some airlines will voluntarily fly unwanted meat out of Kotzebue to Anchorage, where it is used in programs to feed the disadvantaged…….
    Refrigerated vans would solve a lot of the problem. Why can’t the guides, transporters, and airlines get together to get them there?

    Do we need to go further down the “no more access” political path over something that can be solved with a couple of enforcement people and a few refrigerated vans for a few weeks?

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    Member lawdog's Avatar
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    Angry The Bio has made it very clear that..

    He doesn't want any facilities there to make the place more hunter friendly, ie. meat processing or storage facilities. I like the quote that says there's no regulations for the number of animals a client can take. Um... NR moose-draw, NR bear-draw, NR one caribou, anything else?

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    Member tccak71's Avatar
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    Cool Discouraging article

    I read the article, it just sounds so conjested and messy up there. I'm not to far from doing my first fly out hunt, slated for fall 09, and I'm undecided as to where to go. I want to go caribou/brown/grizzly hunting and Kotzebue is an option, but it sounds like a wreck up there. I am considering hunting the Mulchatna herd out of Dillingham, Bethel, Aniak, or even from Anchorage; or hunting the central arctic herd out of Beattles or Coldfoot. I'd rather have a descent shot at a caribou and enjoy some peace and quiet and do a little fishing then be involved in what is going on in Kotzebue at this point.

    Tim

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawdog View Post
    The Bio has made it very clear that.. He doesn't want any facilities there to make the place more hunter friendly, ie. meat processing or storage facilities.....
    So it is outright admitted that putting an end to the waste of meat isn't the priority?

    The clear goal is a limitation of access, and wasted meat is just another factor to consider to achieve that goal, even though it can be easily solved?

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    Member martentrapper's Avatar
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    I don't think that Kotz is a wreck. It has problems the same way any place with alot of non local users has. Look at the problems on the haul road, and along the Taylor and steese hiways when they are open for bou.
    You should be able to hunt the western arctic herd out of Bettles. It isn't any farther to decent bou numbers in 23 or 26 from bettles, than it is from Kotz.
    Anyone who thinks they can plunk down in Kotz, go for a 1 hr cub or beaver ride , and be in good bou country is wrong IMO. It will take 2 or more hours, one way, from Kotz to reach bou, considering their usual habits the last few years.
    I can't help being a lazy, dumb, weekend warrior.......I have a JOB!
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    Member tccak71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper View Post
    Anyone who thinks they can plunk down in Kotz, go for a 1 hr cub or beaver ride , and be in good bou country is wrong IMO. It will take 2 or more hours, one way, from Kotz to reach bou, considering their usual habits the last few years.
    That's part of it for me too, I don't want to hunt where everyone else is hunting. I'd like to seperate myself from the crowd a little since this is a rare and expensive opportunity for me to do a remote hunt.

    Tim

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    Quote from the article...

    “I’ve planned and saved for this hunt for three years,” says Brad Gray, a hunter from Pennsylvania. “It cost me $15,000 and it was worth every penny of it.”

    "While some would like to take home the meat, they have admittedly come for the trophies. “I wanted to keep all of the meat but it costs $130 just to ship 50 pounds of it to Philadelphia,” continued a frustrated Gray. “I would like to take the whole thing if I could. I had to pack 1,000 pounds of meat 1 ½ miles uphill just to give it away.”



    So my question is if you are willing to spend 15000 bucks to kill an Alaska Yukon Moose why wouldn't you be willing to pay the bucks to get it processed in Alaska and shipped back to the lower 48?!?!

    The pic of that meat on the pallet for 2 days makes me sick (assuming that article is correct). I;m not implying that is was this guys meat either but someone pulled the trigger on that critter and him and the antlers are gone. What's up with that?

    I say make it a law that out of state hunters have to salvage and process thier meat just like us locals do. If thier not willing to pay the bucks to salvage and process the meat then stay home and save your money unilt you can oafford too.

    I'm sure I'll take some heat over this one but enough is enough. Maybe this guy should have saved for another year so he could have afforded to salvage and process his meat and take it home.

    I know hunters are allowed to give away meat blah, blah, blah but that loophole as been abused for years.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snyd View Post
    Quote from the article...

    “I’ve planned and saved for this hunt for three years,” says Brad Gray, a hunter from Pennsylvania. “It cost me $15,000 and it was worth every penny of it.”

    "While some would like to take home the meat, they have admittedly come for the trophies. “I wanted to keep all of the meat but it costs $130 just to ship 50 pounds of it to Philadelphia,” continued a frustrated Gray. “I would like to take the whole thing if I could. I had to pack 1,000 pounds of meat 1 ½ miles uphill just to give it away.”



    So my question is if you are willing to spend 15000 bucks to kill an Alaska Yukon Moose why wouldn't you be willing to pay the bucks to get it processed in Alaska and shipped back to the lower 48?!?!
    That's $2.60 per pound. And it's already pointed out that Kotz doesn't have enough meat processing facilities or refrigeration, and the area biologist doesn't want to see such capabilities developed.

    It is, clearly, a system designed for failure, because that failure furthers the true goal;

    access restrictions.

    .....The pic of that meat on the pallet for 2 days makes me sick (assuming that article is correct). I;m not implying that is was this guys meat either but someone pulled the trigger on that critter and him and the antlers are gone. What's up with that?....
    1) A lack of enforcement
    2) A lack of infrastructure
    3) A lack of desire to fix the problem

    .....I say make it a law that out of state hunters have to salvage and process thier meat just like us locals do.....
    Page 18 is quite clear on meat salvage, and page 19 is quite clear on change of possession. There is nothing in these requirements that differentiate between residents and non-residents.

    Page 18 even has a section advocating meat donations to the Food Bank of Alaska.

    Meat donations are standard fare in many other parts of the world, especially Africa. I don't see why Alaska can't get with the program (unless, of course, it isn't about meat at all, and is about access..........)

    ......I know hunters are allowed to give away meat blah, blah, blah but that loophole as been abused for years.
    Then it's a lack of enforcement.

    If they can't enforce meat salvage requirements, how do they think they'll enforce the access restrictions that many want to see?

  10. #10
    Member cusackla's Avatar
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    Angry Kotz!

    It simply amazes me that no matter where you go (ANYWHERE) it is always the non-local and non-residents that cause all of the problems. What a load that is! I have hunted Kotz for a number of years and as an Alaskan Resident, I say that anyone in Alaska that looks outside to find all the problems simply has a hidden agenda. I for one know 1st hand that the local biologist has his own agenda that does not have hunting harvest or ethics at the top of his priority list!
    A simple walk around Kotz will tell you that a TON of Want and Waste takes place on the home front!
    Kotz has its problems with storage and accessibility, but blaming others hoping they would go away is just simply being an *****
    Luckily enough for me, some of the self-beneficial regulations driven by the local area biologist happen to work in my favor!
    Meaning I fly in, get my registration tag and that gives me the opportunity to hunt late, which minimizes some of the accessibility concerns, makes for a trip that has less hunters in the area and being later in the year and colder helps prevent meat spoilage. Of course last year even after the 20th, proper cooling and covering the meat is the only thing that saved it

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    Somewhere along the line it has to come down to hunters having a backbone and choosing to NOT pull the trigger if they can't take care of the meat. AND, guides NOT taking hunters into an area where the cannot get the hunter AND the meat back to a place where it can be processed before it rots.

    I've been on moose hunts where we came home early because we had one hanging and it was getting warm. Most of us can share similar experiences I'm sure. It seems to me that if you know you are not going to be able to kill a moose and take care of the meat you have no business going on the hunt in the first place or being a guide and taking someone on a hunt like that.

    $2.60 a pound. That's about half the price of beef isn't it? I don't know. I don't but the stuff. I eat the critters I kill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cusackla View Post
    .....I say that anyone in Alaska that looks outside to find all the problems simply has a hidden agenda.....
    I don't think it can be hidden anymore. It's pretty much out in the open.

    Environmentalists, the feds, and locals simply don't want people out there, and apparently, more and more state officials feel the same way.

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    Your a little too anxious to blow your own horn, snyd, and too quick to expect everyone else to be as perfect as you. Not flaming, just making an observation.
    If you look at hunters across america, they are predominately SPORT hunters. Most of us hunt with a SPORT license in our pocket. It's SPORT hunting that drives the industry. Most of the hunting orgs are SPORT orgs. The market hunters of yesterday were MEAT hunters. Don't want to be associated with that, now do ya? Haha!
    I can't help being a lazy, dumb, weekend warrior.......I have a JOB!
    I have less friends now!!

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    Not really trying to blow my horn or trying to say I am better than anyone but this issue really peeves me. I don't really care if a guy wants to give away his meat. But atleast make sure it gets taken care of. Of course most hunters are SPORT hunters but sport hunters are required by law in most cases to harvest the meat. For this guy from back east to talk about how he saved for three years and spent 15000 dollars and it was worth every penny and then in the same breath to cheap out on the cost of transporting meat is a joke. 600lbs x 2.50 lb is a little over 1500 bucks. figure another 500 or even a 1000 to get it shipped to Fairbanks and cut and wrapped and it only adds about 2500 bucks to the 15000 dollar once in a lifetime hunt. Or, at least get it to a processor in Fairbanks and then give it away. What a joke.

    Well, at least he's got horns on the wall and he didn't have to spend another 2000 grand.

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    Member martentrapper's Avatar
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    How about putting your money where your mouth is, snyd? It's only another 2500, right? You'll donate that much, help a brother out, so to speak? Heck, why not start a charity...............Ship the Kotz Meat Back East.
    I can't help being a lazy, dumb, weekend warrior.......I have a JOB!
    I have less friends now!!

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    Somewhere along the line it has to come down to hunters having a backbone and choosing to NOT pull the trigger if they can't take care of the meat. AND, guides NOT taking hunters into an area where the cannot get the hunter AND the meat back to a place where it can be processed before it rots.
    Why should it be any different than this? If you pull the trigger that animal becomes your responsibility says so the law as far as I read it.

    And just why are hunters predominately sport hunters? I don't see that most of us have a choice not to be if we want to hunt. We don't all get subsistence permits so what else is there?

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    Default I don't get it.

    if a moose hunter from aniak shoots a moose, and a moose hunter from fairbanks shoots a moose down the river a few miles...

    the aniak guy is a "subsistence" hunter?

    and the fairbanks guy is a "sport" hunter?
    even though both moose go on their tables?
    it's downright ridiculous.

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    Default as i recall....

    the enforcement was stepped up in the kotz area a year or 2 ago. however, there was a bunch of screaming from the locals because they were getting checked as well.

    why?

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    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper View Post
    How about putting your money where your mouth is, snyd? It's only another 2500, right? You'll donate that much, help a brother out, so to speak? Heck, why not start a charity...............Ship the Kotz Meat Back East.
    Show up in Kotzebue with a refrigerated container and start collecting donated meat to ship elsewhere.

    You'll draw some serious heat from the locals, the Troopers, and Dau in no time flat.

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    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Default Meat issues in Kotzebue

    This is not a new problem, and it's not a simple one either. Here are a few observations-

    A HISTORY LESSON

    During the heyday of the Mulchatna Herd (MCH), we had some of the same problems in Anchorage. The difference was that it wasn't as obvious because Anchorage is a large town. But meat did in fact end up in dumpsters, or was even pitched in the brush in the field. I know of one case where a solo Texas hunter showed up at the takeout with three or four bags of meat from his 60" moose. The pilot asked where the rest of the meat was and the hunter admitted that he'd pitched it in the brush a few miles upriver because it had started to stink (it was a really warm fall). The pilot refused to carry the antlers, insisting on hauling the meat and hunter back to Anchorage. If the hunter turned himself in to the troopers the pilot was willing to return for the antlers later- at the cost of an additional charter. The hunter had been here on three successful solo moose hunts prior to this one, so he certainly knew what was involved in dealing with an animal the size of a moose. I applaud such hard-line efforts and I hope the hunter received a hefty fine in this case.

    THE NON-RESIDENT DYNAMIC

    It's easy to pin all this on all non-residents, and I'm sure I've been misunderstood as doing that in the past. I don't believe it's so much a residency issue as it is a question of inexperience. In other words, many hunters inexperienced with proper field care in Alaska conditions, wind up with spoiled meat. It so happens that in terms of sheer numbers, most of these folks are probably not Alaska residents. Thankfully there are a lot of non residents that do a great job with their game meat though. Hopefully the others see it and take a lesson or two.

    INFRASTRUCTURE ISSUES

    I think part of the problem is that Kotzebue simply is not equipped to deal with the huge influx of hunters they get within a very few short weeks every year. The lack of freezers was mentioned, but let's face it folks. Who would purchase and pay for a cold storage facility that has its main market during the last half of August and the first two weeks of September? It's hugely cost-prohibitive. I think this is less of a political question and more of a marketing issue. In a free enterprise situation, you've gotta believe that if it would pay for itself, someone would be doing it already.

    TROPHY HUNTERS

    I have no problem whatsoever with folks concerned mostly (or even exclusively) with the trophy aspect of this. But I do believe they must adhere to accepted practices concerning the proper care of game meat. I have said in the past that our meat care standards are somewhat arbitrary, having been birthed in a past where meat salvage ethics were developed for the procurement of food. But for most of the folks pulling the trigger nowadays, there is no necessity involved. We like to hunt, we love the experience itself. Perhaps it's a time of bonding with our friends or family, or a way to reconnect with nature, or maybe we just prefer wild game over other meats. There are lots of motives, but the hunter who truly depends on wild game for food is vastly in the minority. Therefore I maintain that for most of us, hunting is an optional activity. If this is the case, who are we to say that these other motivations are wrong? Why is the trophy hunter vilified while the guy who uses a hunt to reconnect with his son or daughter considered the good guy?

    The real question for trophy hunters in the Arctic is what the heck they're doing hunting the Western Arctic Herd to begin with? That area has historically had a very poor showing in the record book! I realize that the term "trophy" means different things to folks, but I would not go to Kotzebue expecting to find much more than a pretty rack on a smaller-bodied animal.

    IRRESPONSIBLE HUNTERS

    These folks come in all sorts of packages- some are nonlocal residents of Alaska, some are nonresidents, and some are even locals who live in the village. I have been there when there were relatively few nonlocal hunters, and you could smell the stench of rotten meat right in town, and see rotten, fly-blown meat hanging on the front porches of people's homes. If we're going to call that Wanton Waste, and make laws prohibiting it, then I believe we need to be consistent in the application of enforcement of those standards, regardless of the race or residency of the folks involved. But again, this isn't a group condemnation of anyone. It's a recognition that, as in the case of nonresident waste, certain individuals are guilty rather than the entire group. I think the state of Alaska, and the federal government, are reluctant to take the issue of local wanton waste seriously in all but a few isolated incidents.

    I know of a case that occurred on the Noatak River a few years ago where a white friend of mine witnessed an entire herd of caribou (25-30 animals) wiped out with automatic weapons fire by a handful of local young men. Many of these animals escaped, though grievously wounded. The ones that were dead on the scene were salvaged, but the others were not followed up, left to die a lingering death somewhere.

    I say these things, having the highest regard for local cultures and peoples. Again, this is an individual issue. Let's not rush to condemn an entire group for the actions of a few.

    Well, that's my writing quota for the week. Hope it helps a little. Nothing personal here, just my own observations and ideas.

    -Mike
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