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Thread: The Sheep "problem" and observations from the BOG meeting in FBX

  1. #21
    Member stid2677's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Strahan View Post
    I don't know that going to 1 sheep every 4 years for nonresidents is going to accomplish a harvest reduction, if that's the intent. The guides will fill the hole with another hunter, of course. I can't speak to ADFG's numbers on how many residents return for a second ram, but I do know several nonresident hunters who have harvested two or three. For guys like that it's not about the money. The fall in love with the experience, just like many of us have.

    Anyway, Proposal 30 sounds like a bone that was tossed out there to appease resident hunters, frankly. There's no way it will do anything to reduce harvest.

    -Mike
    This proposal acceptance IMHO was only approved because they are going to approve the same for residents. "Shared Burden"
    "I refuse to let the things I can't do stop me from doing the things I can"

  2. #22
    Member as.ks.ak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Strahan View Post
    I disagree. In looking through the most recent Dall Sheep Management and Harvest Report, a number of very precise metrics are laid out as management objectives. Some of these are specific numbers of sheep, some are very specific annual harvest numbers, some are specific sheep age thresholds, and so forth. Though there are some fuzzy lines here (like maintaining an aesthetically pleasing sheep hunting experience), others are very tangible and clear.

    Unless these objectives have changed since this most recent report was published, and I am sure some have, the Department has very clear and measurable objectives with respect to Dall sheep. These are exactly the sort of data that are used to determine whether or not there is a biological concern. Granted, some interpretation of the data might be necessary, for example if a "sustainable annual harvest of 60 rams" is not met, it's incumbent on the area biologist to try to figure out why. Possible answers could be hunter access due to weather issues, sheep movement patterns, and of course a reduced sheep population due to predation, disease, other biological factors, predation, and hunting. This is what biologists do.

    In order to avoid a massive "text blast" like I did when proving resident preference in our hunting regulations, I cut my notes short in the following list of specific management objectives. You could look up the rest; there are very clear and measurable metrics for almost every sheep population in the state.

    For what it's worth (and I hope it's worth something to someone out there), here are the standards ADFG uses in many of our sheep populations:

    =======================
    Kenai Mountains: No management objectives stated.

    Alaska Range West: Management objective: average harvest of 78 full curl rams.

    Wrangell Mountains, East of the Copper River: Management objective: sustainable annual harvest of 60 rams.

    Chugach Mountains: Management objectives: to provide a quality hunting experience, to provide the opportunity to take a trophy class ram in the central Chugach, to provide sustainable subsistence hunting opportunity in eastern Chugach. Recommended long-term harvest objectives of 20 rams in western 13D, 30 rams in east-central 13D, and 8 rams in the TCUA.

    Mentasta, Nutzotin, and northern Wrangell Mountains: Management objective: maintain the Dall sheep population. Goal modified to maintain a harvestable population of sheep fluctuating within historical limits of abundance and the carrying capacity of their habitat.

    Tok Management Area: Management objective: to provide Dall sheep hunters additional opportunity to harvest large-horned, trophy rams, maintain a population that produces a harvest of 30-45 rams with mean horn sizes of at least 36 inches and greater than 8 years, maintain an average of at least 7% rams with 40-inch or greater horns in harvest, prevent unacceptable increases in hunter concentration and maintain the existing aesthetically pleasing qualities associated with sheep hunting in the TMA.

    Talkeetna Mountains and Chulitna-Watana Hills: Management objectives: Provide the greatest opportunity to participate in hunting sheep, provide an opportunity to view, photograph, and enjoy sheep (within the Sheep Mountain Closed area in GMU 13A), maintain sheep populations that will sustain an annual harvest of 75 rams.

    Delta Controlled Use Area: Management objectives: Provide aesthetically pleasing hunting conditions by managing hunter numbers, hunter access, and transportation means, annual harvest of 35 full-curl rams with a mean horn length of more than 36 inches and an age exceeding 8 years.

    Chugach Mountains (GMU14C): Management objective: Maintain a minimum harvest of 30 full-curl or larger rams, while providing aesthetically pleasing hunt conditions and avoid overcrowding of hunters in the field.

    GMU 20A (north Alaska Range): Management objectives: manage for a Dall sheep population of approximately 5,000 sheep, maintain an average harvest of rams greater than 8 years old, provide the opportunity for hunters to harvest mature rams during a general hunting season.

    White Mountains area: Management objective: manage for the annual opportunity to harvest full-curl rams from a population of at least 250 Dall sheep.
    =======================

    ...and so on (that's only about half of what's in the report).

    There are many very clear, objective management goals and standards by which Dall sheep hunting opportunity and numbers can be measured. I am not saying that the system is perfect, or that anyone knows exactly how many sheep we have out there. What I am disagreeing with is your claim that the Department has no threshold by which a biological concern could be documented, and upon which harvest limits could be dictated. We do have those tools, and they have been used specifically for that purpose.

    -Mike
    Mike,

    Is there a link to find these standards per each range/CUA? Just curious, I'd like to browse through them.

    Thanks!


    Can't shoot 'em where they ain't.

  3. #23
    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by as.ks.ak View Post
    Mike,

    Is there a link to find these standards per each range/CUA? Just curious, I'd like to browse through them.

    Thanks!


    Can't shoot 'em where they ain't.
    The link is at the top of my post.

    -Mike
    LOST CREEK COMPANY: Specializing in Alaska hunt consultation and planning for do-it-yourself or guided hunts.
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  4. #24
    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Great comments by the board on the youth hunt (proposal 47). A really good proposal for folks trying to get their kids into sheep hunting, and I'm glad it passed. Residents only.

    -Mike
    LOST CREEK COMPANY: Specializing in Alaska hunt consultation and planning for do-it-yourself or guided hunts.
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  5. #25
    Member stid2677's Avatar
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    Getting real right now.....
    "I refuse to let the things I can't do stop me from doing the things I can"

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    GO Theresa!!!!

  7. #27
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    The little bit I've been around BOG meetings and related meetings, I've sensed that Theresa does her homework.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by VernAK View Post
    The little bit I've been around BOG meetings and related meetings, I've sensed that Theresa does her homework.
    I agree and believe she is the most unbiased.
    "I refuse to let the things I can't do stop me from doing the things I can"

  9. #29

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    Did anything of note pass? I am a little late to the party this morning....

  10. #30
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    Probasco has asked for reconsidering of Prop 22 (RC 83) Spraeker not happy.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by polardds View Post
    Probasco has asked for reconsidering of Prop 22 (RC 83) Spraeker not happy.
    They are beating this horse to death. Turner is really pissed.
    "I refuse to let the things I can't do stop me from doing the things I can"

  12. #32

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    He should be pissed. Probasco is clueless, and so are the members that would vote to pass the new language that they are considering.

    And according to the trooper, is even more of a nightmare to enforce than 207.

  13. #33
    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    How would 22 keep people from using planes to spot sheep?
    LOST CREEK COMPANY: Specializing in Alaska hunt consultation and planning for do-it-yourself or guided hunts.
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by J in AK View Post
    Did anything of note pass? I am a little late to the party this morning....
    They passed the youth hunt for sheep (prop. 47). Residents only, Aug 1-5. General season hunts only.
    LOST CREEK COMPANY: Specializing in Alaska hunt consultation and planning for do-it-yourself or guided hunts.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Strahan View Post
    How would 22 keep people from using planes to spot sheep?
    They were discussing amending the language, but it never got that far. I felt the debate the board had was very telling, if was clear to me that prop 207 really is a 2 man proposal. Ted Spraker and Nate Turner pushed that through and prevented the others from voting on the amendment.

    It is IMHO that Mr Spraker truly believes it in the best interest of the resident,, but I believe Mr Turner wants it for other reasons. The board is clearly spit on the subject.
    "I refuse to let the things I can't do stop me from doing the things I can"

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by stid2677 View Post
    They were discussing amending the language, but it never got that far. I felt the debate the board had was very telling, if was clear to me that prop 207 really is a 2 man proposal. Ted Spraker and Nate Turner pushed that through and prevented the others from voting on the amendment.

    It is IMHO that Mr Spraker truly believes it in the best interest of the resident,, but I believe Mr Turner wants it for other reasons. The board is clearly spit on the subject.
    I haven't been able to take it all in due to doctor's appointments, but it's been interesting. In reading 22 it seems like it would allow people to fly around and generally look for sheep. If that's the case, it brings us back to pre-207 and we're doing aerial spotting again, with a small amount of refinement perhaps. Maybe I'm not seeing it.

    And anything with APHA on it causes me to have some skepticism. Never joined the club, because it seemed too much of a "good old boy's" club. I don't prefer insiders groups. Or political manipulation...

    Do you know when they're back from lunch?

    -Mike
    LOST CREEK COMPANY: Specializing in Alaska hunt consultation and planning for do-it-yourself or guided hunts.
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  17. #37
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    They have been coming back at 1:30, they finished the sheep stuff and I had stuff I have put off to listen in. I believe they went to lunch late so they will probably be late coming back. The rehash of prop22 got heated, so they needed a break.
    "I refuse to let the things I can't do stop me from doing the things I can"

  18. #38
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    Back talking about prop50
    "I refuse to let the things I can't do stop me from doing the things I can"

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by stid2677 View Post
    They have been coming back at 1:30, they finished the sheep stuff and I had stuff I have put off to listen in. I believe they went to lunch late so they will probably be late coming back. The rehash of prop22 got heated, so they needed a break.
    So they're perhaps having a food fight right now? :-)

    When they come back they will finish up with 22 and go on to 48?
    LOST CREEK COMPANY: Specializing in Alaska hunt consultation and planning for do-it-yourself or guided hunts.
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  20. #40
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    Anybody else having issues getting the live stream to pull up??


    Can't shoot 'em where they ain't.

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