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Thread: "REDUCED" LOADS---"Education Thread" The Danger/Safety/Tricks/Secrets

  1. #1

    Default "REDUCED" LOADS---"Education Thread" The Danger/Safety/Tricks/Secrets

    Educate us about Reduced Loads, based on your experience. or feel free to post a qualified LINK.

  2. #2

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    The best place to start is with the Lyman Cast Bullet Manual and with cast bullets. Most folks don't bother to read more than the loading tables. There's a wealth of information from honest-to-gosh ballistics engineers in those first chapters. I trust them before anything from experts on the web.

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    Speer has reduced loads in their manual. The Grandson (12yo?) and his family was up for a short visit and he picked out his Greatgrandfather's Remington in .308 to own. We went out shooting (this was one of those "we've got one hour total time to go shoot some guns before it's dark" things) and he found it kicked a bit too much for him with factory rounds. He had very little experience with CF rifles...I wish he'd lived closer when he was younger! He came up the following Summer for a longer stay and I loaded up some light loads from Speer. He was all grins when the gun didn't kick. We slowly worked our way up in power from there.

    From their manual, #12, the powder is IMR 4198, and using 125 grain bullets the speed is only 1969 to 2185 fps. It's a lot milder than 150 grains at a listed 2800 fps.

    For myself I follow BrownBear's advise by loading and shooting cast bullets loaded down in most of my handguns. I can and do load them "warm" when that load is called for, but most of the time is not needed.

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    Like BB says.

    And don't use a load for which you don't have some kinda data for guidance.

    And don't think its always safe to reduce charges below the lowest data.

    AGL4now:
    Reduced loads may not operate the action on your platform.

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    Yep the Lyman cast bullet manual is the way to go. They list loads for the 45/70 with a 405gr at about 1110fps and a 482gr cast at about 1010fps if you are looking for a big bullet going slow.

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    What are some recommended things or materials to fill the void in the case, to help keep the powder in best position......???

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    Trailboss is your friend, depending of course on how reduced is reduced. Several published loads in various chamberings.

  8. #8

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    Yes, I plan to buy some if I ever get to town. Is it a powder that is hard to find, or is it readily available, most places........????

    Quote Originally Posted by gbflyer View Post
    Trailboss is your friend, depending of course on how reduced is reduced. Several published loads in various chamberings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    Yes, I plan to buy some if I ever get to town. Is it a powder that is hard to find, or is it readily available, most places........????

    Using 5744 in 45/70 with boolit weight from 300 to 405 grains, no filler is needed - will use same powder with 500 grain boolit later this week. Loads from Lyman load book.

    Trailboss is great and very difficult to find, grab it when you see it.

    Also plan to use 2F black with the 500 grain boolits later this week.

    What application will you use reduced loads for ?

  10. #10

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    My goal is to have one firearm that is for a special application. That is to as quietly as possible harvest big game with a firearm, "WITHOUT" a suppressor. NO......I do not want a cross-bow. NO....I do not want any type of archery equipment. No......sound suppressor. And most important is that it must be full legal by BATF&E requirements.

    The big game to be harvested will be roughly 50 yards distance, on average. And never will the distance exceed 75 yards.

    Most likely will be a single shot "Firearm" (Fully Rifled Shotgun or some large bore rifle) However it does not have to be single shot, it is just that given that it would never likely be used, there is little point in a more expensive platform.

    The goal is quiet, legally quiet, and still able to hold a 3" group at 75 yards. But quiet is the most important factor, and YES I know it will never be totally quiet. A sound signature that is more drawn-out is preferred to shorter sound signature.

    It should fire a fairly heavy bullet, sub-sonic. I am open to education on this project. My current thinking is pistol cartridge in a rifle length barrel, for example .45 long colt in a 20"-24" barrel. Also considering 20ga. or 12ga. slugs at reduced speed in a long barrel.

    It "MUST" be legal and can not have a sound suppressor. It will have a low power optic. It will most likely be a H&R 1871 or some Harrington & Richardson firearm.


    Quote Originally Posted by mtbikeguy View Post
    .........What application will you use reduced loads for ?

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    unique is a good powder for this application and does not require a filler especially in a pistol round such as the 45 Colt. Most of the shotgun powders will work well without a filler but if you want to use one, batting material you buy at JoAnnes ,very cheap, is what most are using. The pistol rounds may limit the boolit weight depending on throat length. Size of case won't matter too much as you can get all the velocity you want with a 45 Colt. 45cal, 458 vs 452 or 454 would make heavy boolits and molds easier to find. For the 45/70 Lyman shows a 540grs cast at 1057 fps with 23grs of SR 4759. 1096fps with 25.2grs of 5744. They have a 500gr boolit with 28.5 grs of IMR 4198 at 1107 fps. I would use a filler (Dacron/batting material) on any load that uses less than about 80% case volume even though you shouldn't need it for the shotgun powders. Faster powders should make less noise as they make pressure faster and also drop pressure faster toward the front of the barrel. Whether you can tell the difference or not I don't know. It should not be difficult to get 1" or better groups with an H&R 45/70 at 50yds using light loads and heavy boolits. I think you will find noise levels higher than you want without a surpressor. Shotgun levels of noise should be obtainable with more of a boom than the sharp bang but I suspect that will be as good as you can get. Good luck.

  12. #12

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    One option........and it is likely the cheapest is using the "AGUILA" brand Slugs that come in a MINISHELLS. The whole shell is less than one and a half inches.


    12 GAUGE MINISHELL / SLUG

    NO. 1C128974

    ENGINEERED GREATNESS.
    Our 1 Minishell nearly doubles the capacity of shotguns. The 25-gram slug leaves the muzzle at 1,250 fps and delivers less recoil for faster target acquisition.

    POWDER LOAD

    Dram Eq
    1 3/4

    LENGTH

    Inches
    1 3/4

    LOAD

    Ounces
    Grams
    5/8
    25

    SHOT SIZE

    Slug

    VELOCITY

    ft/sec
    1250

    PACKAGING

    Case
    Box
    500
    20

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    I have a smooth bore barrel for a TCR87. It's plenty accurate out to 100 yards with heavy slugs. I've no idea how those 5/8 oz slugs perform.

    A "can" of Trailboss weighs 9 oz.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    One option........and it is likely the cheapest is using the "AGUILA" brand Slugs that come in a MINISHELLS. The whole shell is less than one and a half inches.


    12 GAUGE MINISHELL / SLUG

    NO. 1C128974


    ENGINEERED GREATNESS.
    Our 1 Minishell nearly doubles the capacity of shotguns. The 25-gram slug leaves the muzzle at 1,250 fps and delivers less recoil for faster target acquisition.
    That looks like a great home defense load. 8 or 9 of them up the tube wow.

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  15. #15

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    They do "NOT" work in all pump or semi-auto actions. They also offer that in Buck-Shot and 7.5 shotshell


    Quote Originally Posted by Daveinthebush View Post
    That looks like a great home defense load. 8 or 9 of them up the tube wow.

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    Two things, do not load trail boss lower than powder touching the bullet. I don't know if filler works with trail boss but check this one carefully before loading. Second, the Aguila mini shells are not subsonic at 1250fps

  17. #17

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    Yes......But knowing how ammo makers inflate their fps numbers, and assuming they likely use a 32" barrel for velocity testing.........They may be sub-sonic in an 18" barrel.........Maybe. Also........I would be shooting them in a fully rifled barrel, and that would be slower than the inflated tests in a smooth bore. Might just have to test and find out.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbuck351 View Post
    Second, the Aguila mini shells are not subsonic at 1250fps

  18. #18

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    Also I could drill holes in the barrel that would bleed off gas, and slow the slug.



    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    Yes......But knowing how ammo makers inflate their fps numbers, and assuming they likely use a 32" barrel for velocity testing.........They may be sub-sonic in an 18" barrel.........Maybe. Also........I would be shooting them in a fully rifled barrel, and that would be slower than the inflated tests in a smooth bore. Might just have to test and find out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    What are some recommended things or materials to fill the void in the case, to help keep the powder in best position......???
    Dacron.

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  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    My goal is to have one firearm that is for a special application. That is to as quietly as possible harvest big game with a firearm, "WITHOUT" a suppressor. NO......I do not want a cross-bow. NO....I do not want any type of archery equipment. No......sound suppressor. And most important is that it must be full legal by BATF&E requirements.

    The big game to be harvested will be roughly 50 yards distance, on average. And never will the distance exceed 75 yards.

    Most likely will be a single shot "Firearm" (Fully Rifled Shotgun or some large bore rifle) However it does not have to be single shot, it is just that given that it would never likely be used, there is little point in a more expensive platform.

    The goal is quiet, legally quiet, and still able to hold a 3" group at 75 yards. But quiet is the most important factor, and YES I know it will never be totally quiet. A sound signature that is more drawn-out is preferred to shorter sound signature.

    It should fire a fairly heavy bullet, sub-sonic. I am open to education on this project. My current thinking is pistol cartridge in a rifle length barrel, for example .45 long colt in a 20"-24" barrel. Also considering 20ga. or 12ga. slugs at reduced speed in a long barrel.

    It "MUST" be legal and can not have a sound suppressor. It will have a low power optic. It will most likely be a H&R 1871 or some Harrington & Richardson firearm.
    I've been doing that quite a while. "Quiet" is a relative word, of course. I've been using traditional muzzleloaders. A 54 caliber with all-lead conicals weighing around 450 grains and 1300 fps or so with 80-90 grains of powder delivers zackly that accuracy at zackly those ranges. What's even more fun, I built it myself from a kit delivered through the USPS without an FFL.

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