Results 1 to 13 of 13

Thread: COL.....What the heck.

  1. #1

    Default COL.....What the heck.

    I have been reloading since the 1970's and always tailored cartridge overall length to the gun that I was loading for. That's the way Ole Butch taught me to do it.

    Gunbugs made a comment on this forum a while back...least wise I think it was him so he gets the credit. It was in regards to 22 lr ammo prices and what it cost him per round to shoot his .223.

    I inventoried my reloading supplies a short time ago and discovered a sack of a thousand rounds of 223/.556 brass and 2 boxes of 500 ea Hornady 50 grain VMax bullets. I bought a heap of stuff for a lump sum a couple of years ago when an area gunshop closed. There were a few tubs of stuff that I hadn't gone through yet.

    I decided that since I also had 3 cans of IMR 4198 that I had enough stuff on hand to load enough light loads to last me until I become a turd in the woods. 3 cans of powder is 21,000 grains or 21 grains/round. Since loading a thousand rounds without any spilleage ain't possible I'm going with 20.5 grains per load. This still going to give me 3150-3200 FPS.....hardley a light load but it is compared to the 3500 FPS that I get with the same bullet and "my" charge of CFE 223.

    There is always a chance that I could become that turd in the woods before I get all my ammo shot up. I am not one for just shooting up ammo to hear a bang...no machine gun Joe stuff for me. That brings us to the cartridge overall length delima. I have 3 rifles that shoot 223 ammo and there are 4 more amungst the kids. I want this ammo to be a go for any one of the 7 rifles. Hornady's manual calls for a COL of 2.20" for this load/bullet. My 3 rifles and both of my son's 223s can chamber my test rounds without contacting the rifling with the bullet seated so that the COL is 2.270 a couple of them don't touch lands until they are 2.280 or more.

    I had to know how much .05" difference made in accuracy so I fired 5 rounds with the bullet seated to 2.20" and 5 rounds seated at 2.27" in both my Remington 783 and Weatherby Vanguard. The Remington 783 shot a 2" group with the short load and a 1.25" group with 2.27" round. The Vanguard shot a 2.25 " group with the 2.20 round and a .75 group with the 2.27" round. Part of the reason that I keep these 2 rifles is because their chambers are cut about identically and I can load the same for both rifles and interchange ammo between the two without a hitch. 2.27" has this 50 grain VMAX just a thousandth or two off the lands in both of these rifles and they shoot all ammo best loaded such.

    Can any of you 223 guys tell me the COL of your handloads when the round is "kissing"(BB' terminology and a good one) the rifling.

    Have any of you ever found a handload more accurate when jumping the bullet 5/100ths to a tenth of an inch to get to the rifling. I have never found it to be true.

    So why then would a bullet manufacturing giant suggest seating the bullet so deep. Heck when loaded at 2.20" they even look oddly short. The bullet makers sales depend on accuracy as a top factor in considering their product and then suggest that you load them to less than optimum specs. I can't think that I have ever loaded any ammo to the load manuals suggested COL as I was always tayloring the load to a particular rifle. This time I had numerous rifles that I wanted the ammo to function in so I had to find a happy medium. My findings put that happy medium well beyond the factories happy medium. Do the lawyers have them running that scared? Are there enough boneheads with loading presses that makes the manufacturer think that they have to build a large margin off error into the COLs?

    What are your thoughts on the matter?

  2. #2

    Default

    Loading the same round for multiple rifles, I don't see much choice other than loading everything to fit the shortest throat or magazine. I'm kinda the same way with my three 257 Roberts of three 44 mags if I want to load a single standard round for either trio. the shortest 257 (Ruger M77 Featherweight) would set the length meter for all of them, even if the longest is set up for bullets seated a full quarter inch longer. With the 44's I have to go with the punniest (Smith 629's) for pressure, even if the Ruger digests lots hotter.

    Accuracy is kinda goshdarned on the list of goals when you start "factory" loading your rounds to fit a bunch of guns. Same dilemma for the big boys loading their shells for thousands of guns.

  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Wasilla
    Posts
    515

    Default

    Elmer, You have the right idea but like brownbear said you can't be to picky if you are going to load for guns with different length throats or magazine length. Load for the shortest and shoot them in all the guns and see what you get.

  4. #4
    Member Akheloce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Homer
    Posts
    1,135

    Default

    Coal for .223 is determined by the Saami standard. If a manufacturer loads to Saami spec, it will FUNCTION in Saami spec chambers, that's it. In the case of .223, a huge portion of the market is semi auto rifles which function better with a shorter coal, but not necessarily more accurately.

    Imo, load your rounds as long as possible for the shortest mag/chamber in your Arsenal. I'm my personal experience, coal has less to do with accuracy as a particular velocity that the particular rifle likes.
    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    SwampView AK, Overlooking Mt. Mckinley and Points Beyond.
    Posts
    8,810

    Default

    EKC:
    I weel prefice my remarks by saying that my handloading experience is nowhere near that of yours or BBs, but I also have some of observations to consider.

    I THINK, that you will find that most FLs for most cartridges will be seated to where there is a rather large jump to the lands. Yet FLs are often quite accurate.

    I don't think I have ever tuned a load for OAL, but l'm sure it could make a difference. I just don't believe that seating close to the lands is that important to accuracy, or anything else, even though that seems to be majority thinking. There are other considerations for choosing OAL.

    I have 3, 7x57s and I just do as BB suggests. "fit the shortest throat or magazine".

    I would have thought a thousand rounds wooda lasted you about half a day.

    SOTN
    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
    You can't out-give God.

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    EKC:


    I would have thought a thousand rounds woulda lasted you about half a day.

    SOTN
    I used to shoot around 500 rounds on many a Saturday but that was 30 years ago and was through a L-frame S&W. I think it was about 5 years ago that I finally emptied my spent primer bucket. It was a five gallon bucket full and was runnin over. All of them primers knocked out on the same Rock Chucker. We also had a 30 gallon drum full of pistol cases that had splits from too many trips to the range.

    I think that I shot a total of somthing less than 500 rounds in all of 2015. However the grandkids shot a couple thousand rounds in my presence.

    I don't know how it's working for the rest of you codgers but my best days as a crack shot are behind me. As a result I have kind of resorted back to my younger day and would druther be sitting in the skirl woods with my Single Six and my 22 Henry lever gun. Even though it means I can only shoot the ones that are dumb enough to wander by real close.

    It is what it is and I'm content with it.

  7. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by elmerkeithclone View Post
    I don't know how it's working for the rest of you codgers but my best days as a crack shot are behind me. As a result I have kind of resorted back to my younger day and would druther be sitting in the skirl woods with my Single Six and my 22 Henry lever gun. Even though it means I can only shoot the ones that are dumb enough to wander by real close.

    It is what it is and I'm content with it.
    Same boat, but mostly traditional muzzleloaders. Interesting to go back to the writings of our youth and follow the trajectory of our favorite gun writers back then- Keith, O'Connor, whoever- Over the span of their lives they were on much the same trajectories, transitioning from big game to upland birds and small game.

    I'm perfectly comfortable with it in myself. Let today's young heroes contend for glory. I like my own company and that of my family.

  8. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
    Same boat, but mostly traditional muzzleloaders. Interesting to go back to the writings of our youth and follow the trajectory of our favorite gun writers back then- Keith, O'Connor, whoever- Over the span of their lives they were on much the same trajectories, transitioning from big game to upland birds and small game.

    I'm perfectly comfortable with it in myself. Let today's young heroes contend for glory. I like my own company and that of my family.
    Yup BB, I bought a cute little TC Cherokee to hunt small
    game with. However it does not shoot near as well as my old long barreled 45 roundball gun. It's an Armsport made by Investarms.

    Nothing like spending the afternoon in the woods hunting supper. Then just before the sun gives way to dusk one builds a small fire and cooks a tree rat or two on a stick. Then when satisfied just keep the fire going enough to negate the evening cool down. It's OK to stay as late as you want. Who needs a TV when you can just sit there with your back against a log while the horned owls converse with each other from one end of the timber to the other. It's even OK to take what gramps used to call a priming nap before it's time to head home and call it a day.

  9. #9
    Member Music Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    ANC
    Posts
    1,244

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by elmerkeithclone View Post
    Yup BB, I bought a cute little TC Cherokee to hunt small
    game with. However it does not shoot near as well as my old long barreled 45 roundball gun. It's an Armsport made by Investarms.

    Nothing like spending the afternoon in the woods hunting supper. Then just before the sun gives way to dusk one builds a small fire and cooks a tree rat or two on a stick. Then when satisfied just keep the fire going enough to negate the evening cool down. It's OK to stay as late as you want. Who needs a TV when you can just sit there with your back against a log while the horned owls converse with each other from one end of the timber to the other. It's even OK to take what gramps used to call a priming nap before it's time to head home and call it a day.

    Sounds good but there are a few different things in the woods here in Alaska
    When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away.
    '08 24' HCM Granite HD "River Dog"

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Music Man View Post
    Sounds good but there are a few different things in the woods here in Alaska
    The odds of trouble are so low with sensible precautions, it shouldn't stop a guy from staying out there a few extra hours or days even. I've siwash camped all through the last 40 years without incident, and I don't figure to stop now.

    But back where EKC is doing it, they've got ticks and snakes. That's plenty enough to change my routine!

  11. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    SwampView AK, Overlooking Mt. Mckinley and Points Beyond.
    Posts
    8,810

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by elmerkeithclone View Post
    I used to shoot around 500 rounds on many a Saturday but that was 30 years ago and was through a L-frame S&W. I think it was about 5 years ago that I finally emptied my spent primer bucket. It was a five gallon bucket full and was runnin over. All of them primers knocked out on the same Rock Chucker. We also had a 30 gallon drum full of pistol cases that had splits from too many trips to the range.

    I think that I shot a total of somthing less than 500 rounds in all of 2015. However the grandkids shot a couple thousand rounds in my presence.

    I don't know how it's working for the rest of you codgers but my best days as a crack shot are behind me. As a result I have kind of resorted back to my younger day and would druther be sitting in the skirl woods with my Single Six and my 22 Henry lever gun. Even though it means I can only shoot the ones that are dumb enough to wander by real close.
    It is what it is and I'm content with it.
    Then maybe I shouldn't feel so deprived.

    I ain't content with the amount of shooting I can manage,

    Thot, maybe I should move your Iowee where the beeg gunners are.

    SOTN
    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
    You can't out-give God.

  12. #12
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    SwampView AK, Overlooking Mt. Mckinley and Points Beyond.
    Posts
    8,810

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by elmerkeithclone View Post
    Yup BB, I bought a cute little TC Cherokee to hunt small
    game with. However it does not shoot near as well as my old long barreled 45 roundball gun. It's an Armsport made by Investarms.

    Nothing like spending the afternoon in the woods hunting supper. Then just before the sun gives way to dusk one builds a small fire and cooks a tree rat or two on a stick. Then when satisfied just keep the fire going enough to negate the evening cool down. It's OK to stay as late as you want. Who needs a TV when you can just sit there with your back against a log while the horned owls converse with each other from one end of the timber to the other. It's even OK to take what gramps used to call a priming nap before it's time to head home and call it a day.
    I thought yuh was spose to "Bark'em" with at least 50 cal.

    I usta, when I was a brat, in the company of other brats, cook squirrels over the fire.

    SOTN
    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
    You can't out-give God.

  13. #13
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    SwampView AK, Overlooking Mt. Mckinley and Points Beyond.
    Posts
    8,810

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
    The odds of trouble are so low with sensible precautions, it shouldn't stop a guy from staying out there a few extra hours or days even. I've siwash camped all through the last 40 years without incident, and I don't figure to stop now.

    But back where EKC is doing it, they've got ticks and snakes. That's plenty enough to change my routine!
    Yeah, the Ticks and the Snakes . But you could do it in the winter.

    When I grew up in MO, folks were always seeing Black Panthers. Never kin tell what kinda creatures are prowling around. Them Bigfooted Susquatches have been spotted in every state.

    Not that EKC, or Smokey would have anything to worry about from the squatches, since they hobnob with them, and help them to hide from the searchers.

    It is my understanding, that's how they got acquainted. The squatches introduced them to each other.

    I do not know if there is any blood relationship with either one of them and the squatches.

    SOTN
    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
    You can't out-give God.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •