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Thread: Premium bullet that expands most easily?

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    Default Premium bullet that expands most easily?

    Of the premium bullets (either bonded-core or all-copper), such as TSX, A-Frame, Kodiak, Failsafe, etc. Which is the best expander at low velocity?

    I'm asking because I'm about to start fooling around w/a mosin nagant (as I've talked about on another thread), and I want to work up a big bear load.....NO, I DO NOT PLAN TO USE THIS GUN FOR BIG BEAR! I know that it isn't ideal, or even close... trust me, I'm not the one who needs that lecture.... I just want the load to use IF I had to.

    So, if you were facing down a big brownie and all you had was a 7.62x54r, what bullet would you wish you had loaded?

    I'm trying to decide between the velocity of 180 gr. and the penetration of 200 gr. I'm thinking that TSX might not expand reliably at nagant velocities. So maybe 180 A-Frame? or 200 Kodiak?

  2. #2

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    I just remembered... 7.62 is .311 instead of .308.......suggestions? How accurate will .308 bullets be? Any recommended .311 bullets?

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    To me the word "premium" bullet means; predictable, reliable, consistant, controlled expansion.

    Some are and should be more controlled than others.

    What makes them premium and justifies the price is what is done in design or manufacture or the type of material used to bring about the above performance when used in the field.

    Some are of similar design with different material used, other completely different design with the same material and some add something extra like bonding or tapered jackets to keep the performance where it should be.

    These brands are of similar construction with variations from "softest to toughest".

    The Hawk....pure lead core with soft annealled copper non-tapered jacket. Conventional cup and core design with carefully selected non-alloyed lead and copper. Jacket thickness varies with application. Very high weight retention for a typical "mushroom " expansion. Great quality control but has velocity limitations. Best in the 1600-2400 fps range.

    .303 British (.311 dia.)

    Spitzers
    Weight-----jckt thickness--
    25 grains x .035 SPZ........$30.00 c3 (special order 3 boxes)
    180 grains x .035 SPZ........$32.00
    215 grains x .035 SPZ........$34.00

    Round Tips
    180 grains x .030 RT..........$31.00 c3 (special order 3 boxes)
    215 grains x .030 RT..........$33.00 c3

    Woodleigh...pure lead core with non-tapered gilding metal jacket, bonded to the core. Different jacket thickness varried with application. (same diameter different use/velocity). Conventional design with jacket selection and bonding to control amount of expansion. Very high weight retention. Heavier caliber have thick jackets and are tougher bullets. Velocity range 1800-2600 fps.
    ---------------dia.--wgt.--------qty-SD-BC--Vel. Range- length
    68A 303 British .312" 174gr PP SN 50 .255 .362 1800-2400 1.098
    68 7.62x54R --.312"-215gr RN SN 50 .316 .359 1800-2200 1.235


    Kodiak.....lead alloy core with gilding metal (copper/zinc alloy) tapered jackets, flux bonded to the core. The bonding process also anneals the jacket and makes it softer, more malleable. Typical "mushroom" expansion. Very high weight retention. Velocity range 1800 to 2800 fps.

    (No Kodiaks in .311-.312" diameter)

    Grand Slam....lead tri-alloy core (hard) in tapered gilding metal jacket with tapered nose and thicker shank, with "locking" internal ridge to hold jacket and core together. Tough bullet but narrow velocity range for best performance. Lower weight retention but high wounding capability within velocity limitations. Velocity range 2200-2900 fps.
    Last edited by Murphy; 06-30-2007 at 09:49.
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    Quote Originally Posted by go_north View Post
    I just remembered... 7.62 is .311 instead of .308.......suggestions? How accurate will .308 bullets be? Any recommended .311 bullets?
    Accuracy in .308" Sux.
    Accuracy in .311" Sux.

    The word "accuracy" and the word "Mosin" are not on the same scale.

    A Finnish made rifle is and exception as the groove diameter is actually .311".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    Accuracy in .308" Sux.
    Accuracy in .311" Sux.

    The word "accuracy" and the word "Mosin" are not on the same scale.

    A Finnish made rifle is and exception as the groove diameter is actually .311".
    hmm does not the word mosin go with accuracy lol like every russian sniper in ww2 used a mosin nagant rifle...

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    Quote Originally Posted by svehunter View Post
    hmm does not the word mosin go with accuracy lol like every russian sniper in ww2 used a mosin nagant rifle...
    Name one Russian who amassed so many kills as to have his name remembered.

    US names. Dixon. York. Mahwinny. Hathcock.

    Maybe when the Mosins were new and had bullets to fit they could be stretched to hit out around 200 meters!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    Name one Russian who amassed so many kills as to have his name remembered.

    US names. Dixon. York. Mahwinny. Hathcock.

    Maybe when the Mosins were new and had bullets to fit they could be stretched to hit out around 200 meters!
    lol look up Vasily Zaytsev or Lyudmila Pavlichenko on wikipedia

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    Quote Originally Posted by svehunter View Post
    lol look up Vasily Zaytsev or Lyudmila Pavlichenko on wikipedia
    Yeah. I know there were lots of them in the defense of the mother country in WWII. But remember the Mosin was replaced with the Drug.

    And Lyudmila was a woman as were most Russian snipers. She logged 309 Germans.
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    Default hawk 215 grainer

    .311 dia 215 grains x .030 (jacket thickness)RT..........$33.00 per 50

    If yer out stompin around in the wrinkles and a brown pops up, these should be pretty good for gettin yer point across.

    hawk bullets http://www.hawkbullets.com/Pricelist.htm

    The soft flexible jackets hold these rounds together and help form fit to old worn military bores to give new life of accuracy to old war relics.....try them and you will be pleasently surprised at your groups as well as terminal performance.

    jedi

  10. #10

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    Thanks guys......so, somebody want to talk about Hawk vs. Woodleigh? I think I can get these 215 gr.ers to 2400 fps. I'm leaning toward the Hawk...

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    Quote Originally Posted by go_north View Post
    Thanks guys......so, somebody want to talk about Hawk vs. Woodleigh? I think I can get these 215 gr.ers to 2400 fps. I'm leaning toward the Hawk...

    The Hawk is not bonded, the Woodleigh Weldcore is. The Woodleigh is a stronger built bullet but at max muzzle velocity of 2500 fps or less, the Hawk would do well. Actually it does well when driven a very high velocity but it rolls back into a ball of lead with the jacket on the inside of the ball. Unless maximum penetration is needed the Hawk is the best choice. The 215 grs at 2400 will be ideal for the Hawk. There is no better quality control in the manufacture of any bullet than the Hawk. I would expect a little better penetration from the Woodleigh because of the jacket, but I don't think any animal would notice the difference. I think they only make the .312" diameter
    which is better for the military rifles and oll their .312" bullets are for that velocity range.

    Kodiak is a better bullet to compare to the Woodleigh but they don't make it in .312".
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  12. #12

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    So Murphy... I know this will be tough, but imagine that you were forced to carry that gun- the very existence of which robs you of joy- the loathed Mosin :-) for bear protection. You personally would choose the Hawk @ 2400?

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    Quote Originally Posted by go_north View Post
    So Murphy... I know this will be tough, but imagine that you were forced to carry that gun- the very existence of which robs you of joy- the loathed Mosin :-) for bear protection. You personally would choose the Hawk @ 2400?
    Shudder! No, the Woodleigh 215 grain. I'd use the Hawk for everything else.
    But in bear country I'd carry the Woodleighs @ 2400 fps....We're splitting some pretty fine brown bear hairs here.
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    Personally I do not care for Mosin actions. However.....

    Simo Häyhä of Finland supposedly used a Mosin with iron sights during the winter war to rack up 542 confirmed kills.
    Nikolay Ilyin = 494 with a Mosin
    Ivan Sidrenko= 500 with a Mosin
    Ivan Kulbertinov=489 with a Mosin
    Valimir Pchelintsev=456 with a Mosin

    The list goes on more than my spelling can handle

    The 7.62 x 54r is an old cartridge, about on par with a good late period 303 british load.
    Speaking of 303 in a Sniper round.
    Francis Pegahmagabow (Canada)= 378 kills with a 303
    Henry Norwest of Canada =115 confirmed during WWI using a 303
    Billy Sing (Australia) 150 confirmed during WWI using a 303
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    While I'm a much bigger fan of the Mauser 98 than the Moison Nagant, and my personal Moison example is the worst shooting bolt gun I've ever had ~1' 100 yds groups, I don't think it is fair to say all Moison's are junk.

    As to which bullet I'd use in a Moison, whatever ~200 gr bullet shot best in the rifle. The velocities aren't high enough to worry about bullet failure.

  16. #16

    Default MN range report

    Yesterday:

    m39 1944 SAKO with darrell's scout scope mount and NEC 2.5X EER scope

    Bore slugs out at .312

    From a rest:
    125 Gr Nosler .308s shoot about 4 inches at 100 yds

    Silver tip, green steel cased in green box shots MILSURP ammo about 2" at 100 yds for ten shots. Bullet measures .310 diam.

    Note that all the current manuals seem to call for a .30 bullet and the older manuals list .31 bullets. Not sure why.

    The .310 Rem 180 grains shoot nicely in this gun as well.

    I have some 195 Gr bullets for the 303.com guy and some Taipan 215's
    to try.

    I think a .30 200 or 220 gr would group with acceptable hunting accuracy out to 100 as well, given my experience with the 125's.

    The 7.62 has 3006 case capacity. and the 220 gr in the '06 is no slouch. The 215 Gr in in the 303 Brit has a reputation for penetration as well.

  17. #17

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    My experience has shown me that Hawkes are the softest bullets being sold today, with the corresponding shallow penetration. Every othe shooter I know who has treid them came to the same conclusion. If you are hunting very thin skinned game and penetration is not an issue, then they will probably work. But far from guranteed.

    I would trust a Sierra boat tail to out penetrate the Hawkes. I have not toured the Hawke production facility, so I can not comment on the QC program. But I have talked to the owner several times, and when we got to talking abou tbullet performance, he QUICKLY said his bullet was not bonded, did not have deep penetration, and should not be considered a premium bullet.

    Remember the "bad old days" when bullet failure was pretty common? THat was literally the same manufacturing process that Hawke uses. THey are great for practice or for using in odd ball calibers because they are available.

    If you use TSX's, you will find that at times they do not expand. Once you get to .375 and up, they seem to be much more reliable about opening up. But in smaller bores, there are ocassional problems. I have been burned by them and won't use them again.

    Nosler Partitions are boringly reliable. Yes, I did have one break apart and lose both cores after centering the ball of a moose shoulder joint, but I trust them a lot. This year I will use Nosler Partitions on deer and Woodleighs on black bear.

    Marc Stokeld
    Sawyer, MN
    Last edited by MCSWXW; 07-23-2007 at 10:56. Reason: forgot to post my name

  18. #18

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    Hawks remind me of the original Barnes more than anything else- Adjust the jacket thickness to suit the application, but count on expanion. I've got some 300-grain .429 Hawks with the thicker jackets that have gone end to end and exited from deer when launched at 2300 fps. Their standard jacketed 300's can sometimes be found under the hide on broadside shots with the same load.

    I've sent 200 grain Noslers and 220 grain Corelokts from both 30-06 and 308 end to end through deer, but always managed to collect the bullet under the hide at the far end.

    Both the 220 grain Winchester soft point and the 220 grain Corelokt from my 30-40 Krags seem to expand less while penetrating deeper than when fired at the higher velocities I launch them from 30-06 and 308. Might be some lessons there for construction/penetration/expansion/velocity of your Mosin.

    Gotta say that a good friend "found" a Mosin sniper rifle disassembled in his gear when he returned from Nam- complete with 4x scope. We cleaned it up good (lots of jacket fouling in it's otherwise pristine bore) and took it to the range. With Norma factory loads (don't remember the weights we tried) the heavier bullets would make you wonder why the Russian and NVA snipers missed so often. MANOMANOMANOMAN, was I happy that thing was never pointed at me!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MCSWXW View Post
    My experience has shown me that Hawkes are the softest bullets being sold today, with the corresponding shallow penetration. Every othe shooter I know who has treid them came to the same conclusion. If you are hunting very thin skinned game and penetration is not an issue, then they will probably work. But far from guranteed.

    I would trust a Sierra boat tail to out penetrate the Hawkes. I have not toured the Hawke production facility, so I can not comment on the QC program. But I have talked to the owner several times, and when we got to talking abou tbullet performance, he QUICKLY said his bullet was not bonded, did not have deep penetration, and should not be considered a premium bullet.

    Remember the "bad old days" when bullet failure was pretty common? THat was literally the same manufacturing process that Hawke uses. THey are great for practice or for using in odd ball calibers because they are available.

    If you use TSX's, you will find that at times they do not expand. Once you get to .375 and up, they seem to be much more reliable about opening up. But in smaller bores, there are ocassional problems. I have been burned by them and won't use them again.

    Nosler Partitions are boringly reliable. Yes, I did have one break apart and lose both cores after centering the ball of a moose shoulder joint, but I trust them a lot. This year I will use Nosler Partitions on deer and Woodleighs on black bear.

    Marc Stokeld
    Sawyer, MN

    Marc,

    Hawk;
    I agree the Hawks are very soft, in fact they are advertised as just that. Stay within the velocity they are designed for, given jacket thickness, and they work very well. The do expand all the way to the base, but weight retention is among the best of premium bullets. They do have the very best of quality control and the uniformity of their bullets is as good as any of the best bullets made anywhere. They can be had in different jacket thickness, .025", .035", .050", and the thicker the jacket the higher velocity they can take.

    Bullet failures are more a product of too much velocity than of poor bullet construction.

    Sierra; I agree.
    Barnes; I agree.
    Partitions; I agree.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  20. #20

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    I had poor bullet performance with Hawks when using 7mm 175 gr. .035 jacket RN bullets. The first time a bullet blew up on me, I wrote it off as "stuff happens." The second time the bullet blew up on me a mere 2 months later, I said "Hmmm, just maybe what some other hunters have told me is true." These hunters, by the way, have much more field experience than me-and I have a lot more field experience than the typicla hunter.

    And by the way, these bullets were fired out of a 7x57 with a load that was a good bit below max and the chronographed muzzle velocity was 2476 fps. Impact velocity was, of course, lower. Not exactly a screaming load in anyone's book.

    Plus they were not very accurate for me. They grouped a little over 2-21/2" for 3 shots at 100 yards, which was more than adequate for my purposes with that rifle and load. Where I was, 120 yards was about the absolute maximum that I could see.

    THere is NO WAY in the world would I hunt with a Hawk where there was a slim chance of me bumping into a big bear. Go ask for Hawk stories on other internet hunting boards and ask for real life experiences. You will see a definite trend-folks who have done much with the Hawks in the field have failure stories, where they never had any occurences with other bullets.

    For some reason, folks get pretty emotional with their bullet choice and will go to great lengths to defend it against stories of failure. just post some pics of a Barnes TSX bullets that did not expand and then dive for cover!

    If you want some 7mm 175 gr Hawks w/.035 jackets, drop me an email. Seriously, I would love to get rid of them.

    Marc Stokeld
    Sawyer, MN

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