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Thread: Your ice ain't all gonna melt away......it's wooheee

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    Default Your ice ain't all gonna melt away......it's wooheee

    Take a gander at this my friends on the forum and let me know your thoughts on the matter!

    https://w3.newsmax.com/LP/Finance/RW...kt_nbr=xlep8fg

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    Member AlaskaHippie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmerkeithclone View Post
    Take a gander at this my friends on the forum and let me know your thoughts on the matter!

    https://w3.newsmax.com/LP/Finance/RW...kt_nbr=xlep8fg
    Yeah.

    3rd Winter in a row up here that's been cancelled due to lack of....Winter.
    While for the 3rd Winter in a row, the lesser 48 is having all sorts of wonky weather conditions.
    As the ice cap retreats, glaciers recede at record rates, etc etc etc.

    What a well orchestrated scam.

    I'll wager Newsmax scooped Breitbart on this....
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.” ― H.S.T.
    "Character is how you treat those who can do nothing for you."

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    Pretty hard to place any credibility in that article. Lies, dang lies, and statistics. Happens on both sides no doubt. However, I know what I've seen and experienced. Glaciers in Alaska ARE getting smaller. I can see that with my own eyes. I've done work for the oil companies on the north slope and have seen, and collected, temperature data showing the permafrost getting warmer. Both are indicators of overall warming. I could go on but suspect it would be a waste of time.

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    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    That article is very full of holes. Some are misrepresentations of data and some are outright false. Among the claims that are outright false are the following:

    When further review was done, it was discovered that a mere 1% of scientists believe human activity is causing most of the climate change.
    That is so far from the truth that it is laughable. I'd challenge the author or anyone supporting this claim to show me the "review" upon which this is based.

    Lie #2: The Oceans are getting warmer
    While local observations can paint a misleading picture of global trends, it is certainly fact that ocean waters in the North Pacific have been worryingly warm the past few years. Furthermore, we've already seen many of the problems that this is causing. As for global ocean temps, one only needs to look at data gathered by NOAA and others to see that this "lie" is in fact true.

    The author then goes on to claim that the arctic ice sheet is growing in size. This is a complete misrepresentation of the data. It has grown from the absolute low points a time or two, but the trend is pretty darn clear. Furthermore, the thickness of the ice sheet has been decreasing pretty dramatically.





    The data table cited in the middle regarding global warming reversing since 1998 is a complete misrepresentation of what that data means. A temperature anomaly (https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/monitoring.../anomalies.php) is a deviation from the long-term average. Some years have had greater deviations from the long-term averages than others, but there has been a positive trend in almost all years since 1998. A lower change from the long-term averages still represents an increase in temperature. You know the saying "figures lie and liars figure"? This would be a case of lying through a graph by misrepresenting what it means. Here is the data that is used to make the graph - remember, a positive number means that things are warming, even if the change is less from one year to the next. (source: https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/global/201513)




    A more easily understood representation of global temperature trends is as follows:




    I could go on. Frankly, as a conservative, it pisses me off that science has become an ideological issue. Articles like this are so predictable and they exclusively come from sources with a "conservative" bent. It makes me angry beyond belief that it has become a hallmark of conservatism to be scientifically illiterate and to decide which scientific information is valid based on our ideological goals. Sticking our fingers in our ears and pretending that something is a vast liberal conspiracy hatched by those who want to control our lives doesn't make facts any less true. The earth is warming. We need to figure out how we're going to deal with that.

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    Member cod's Avatar
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    Why do we need to figure out how we're going to deal with it? What makes you even think we can do anything about it? The earth will, like it always has and will, take care of it self.
    Heck, we haven't even figured out how to feed our poor in our country. It's a false liberal thought process that thinks it can make every ill in the world better. Half the time it's just made worse in the longer run.
    Your sarcasm is way, waaaayyyyyyyy more sarcastic than mine!

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    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cod View Post
    Why do we need to figure out how we're going to deal with it? What makes you even think we can do anything about it? The earth will, like it always has and will, take care of it self.
    We probably can't do anything about the warming trend, but we'd better plan on how we'll deal with melting permafrost, rising ocean levels, warmer oceans, and such. We have to plan for the consequences even if there is nothing to be done about the trend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cod View Post
    ..............What makes you even think we can do anything about it? The earth will, like it always has and will, take care of it self.
    ..............It's a false liberal thought process that thinks it can make every ill in the world better. Half the time it's just made worse in the longer run.
    Well, well - we already have done something about it. We have made it worse, just as mentioned in your last sentence. Shall we just continue doing so .....
    Liberal, eh?? Do you figure life in the ocean makes that same ridiculous partisan distinction (a purely human folly/avoidance meme) and are you paying attention to what is happening to the oceans .......... one example only:
    http://www.adn.com/article/20160211/...ic-sea-mammals. Then there are the micro plastics, trash issues, and on and on.......

    Bottom line is we can kill aspects of the planet and/or ourselves quite effectively by multiple readily available means. Our descendants will love us for it.
    "Punish the monkey - let the organ grinder go" - Mark Knopfler

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    Member homerdave's Avatar
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    Alaska Board of Game 2015 tour... "Kicking the can down the road"
    http://www.alaskabackcountryhunters.org/

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    Member Mkay's Avatar
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    About 150 years ago an obscure botanist came out with a theory on evolution. I think his name was Darwin, and he did a lot of observation of nature when he traveled to the Galapagos islands. The theory was controversial and revolutionary. He even suggested that humans had an ape-like ancestor. So what happened? Dozens of fellow scientists who supported Darwin went all over England, and then later to Europe and the US to present his ideas. There were famous debates in college lecture halls, museums, and even churches. Not once, not ever, did Darwin's supporters say that the debate was over and that thay would not take questions from the opposition. It never occured to evolutionary theorists to engage in childish name calling, and accuse those who disagreed with them of being deniers and criminals. In real science, claiming that there is no debate and that there can be no questioning of the theory doesn't fly. That is religion. I am a global warming agnostic, might be real, might not be. We need the global warming believers to step up and do what Darwin's supporters did. Go out in public and engage the opposition. There are scores of scientists on the other side who would take up the challenge.
    My child was inmate of the month at Mat-Su pre-trial Correctional facility.

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    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mkay View Post
    In real science, claiming that there is no debate and that there can be no questioning of the theory doesn't fly. That is religion. I am a global warming agnostic, might be real, might not be. We need the global warming believers to step up and do what Darwin's supporters did. Go out in public and engage the opposition. There are scores of scientists on the other side who would take up the challenge.
    Absolutely true. Skepticism is at the core of science, as is the principle that any fact held to be true must be re-examined in the light of new evidence if said evidence does not support prior conclusions. Spot on.

    That said, the article in question does not seek to debate anthropomorphic climate change based on valid evidence. It misrepresents data and makes patently false statements.

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by homerdave View Post
    C'mon, Dave, the very implication that we should even attempt to refute bull****, simply reeks of a false liberal thought process.

    (I just tossed my Don't Worry, Be Happy Meal trash out my window. Empty beer cans are going out next. Brrrrrrrp. I'm done coddling the Earth like some liberal tree hugging pansy; the Earth can take care of itself!)
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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    Member Mkay's Avatar
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    What we need is more robust debate, not less. We need mutual respect for both sides. It is quite possible that someone who disagrees with you might actually know a thing or two. Not all of us who are sceptics (I suppose you will stick me in that basket) are luddites. I believe in evolution because as a young pup I collected fossils in central Texas and saw the proof with my own eyes. I argued with my pastor and family on this. I would have not gotten very far calling those who did not agree with me of being stupid. This is sort of a marketing thing. Would you not be better off trying to persuade instead of insulting. For all of the global warming/climate change believers there is an alternative universe of folks who are sceptics. Many are scientists. I wonder why they do not agree? I sat let's get them together and see the debate.
    My child was inmate of the month at Mat-Su pre-trial Correctional facility.

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    There seems to be quite a bit of agreement among geoscientists that this most current warming trend is comparable to past warming events, perhaps on a roughly 1500 year cycle. The contention is that the temperature data that the modeling geeks draw from is too limited in age to give much of an accurate picture. Warming trends have tended to benefit mankind in the past e.g. the Renaissance. The Dark Ages coincided with a cooling event resulting in crop failure, epidemics (plague), and population declines in Europe. Current glacial changes in Alaska are nothing compared to what happened as the Pleistocene faded. Much of the Cook Inlet area was under 1/2 mile of ice not to mention that about 1/2 of the entire North American continent was glaciated. The ice fields and glaciers we see today are piddling remnants of what there was and that all was set in motion 10,000 years +/- before the first infernal combustion engine. I agree with Brian's point regarding dealing with the changes rather than trying to prevent them. I think, like that 7.1 shaker, we are just along for the ride.

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    Member LindenTree's Avatar
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    Just my opinion.

    I tend to believe that the current climate change/warming is caused my human activity.
    However, my take on climate change is that it is just a symptom of the disease.

    The disease is human over-population of the earth.

    Just as all animals have a carrying capacity. IE; A certain amount of area/acres which can support a certain number/species of animals.
    Humans are no different, the earth can only support so many humans. When we exceed this carrying capacity a couple things can happen.

    We can kill our host. (Earth)

    Or the Human Population will face a correction in its numbers. IE: Disease or something else to bring their numbers into balance.

    I have no problem with anyone who does not believe that climate change/warming is happening, and also agree with many here, who have stated that there needs to be professional dialogue on both sides of the issue.

    Linden
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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LindenTree View Post
    Just my opinion.

    I tend to believe that the current climate change/warming is caused my human activity.
    However, my take on climate change is that it is just a symptom of the disease.

    The disease is human over-population of the earth.

    Just as all animals have a carrying capacity. IE; A certain amount of area/acres which can support a certain number/species of animals.
    Humans are no different, the earth can only support so many humans. When we exceed this carrying capacity a couple things can happen.

    We can kill our host. (Earth)

    Or the Human Population will face a correction in its numbers. IE: Disease or something else to bring their numbers into balance.

    I have no problem with anyone who does not believe that climate change/warming is happening, and also agree with many here, who have stated that there needs to be professional dialogue on both sides of the issue.

    Linden
    Rep sent. Well said. Tho, I'm not sure what you imagine a "professional dialogue on both sides of the issue" would look like or accomplish(?). There has been an ongoing dialog on this subject for decades. The problem of greenhouse gas warming has become increasingly evident and critical over the past decade... Yet one "side of the issue" continues to deny human responsibility, deny anything can be done about it, deny a problem exists at all, deny we ever went to the moon, or that water is wet.... At what point do we conclude there is nothing to be gained by attempting "professional dialog" with people who will never admit there's a problem, never accept responsibility, never agree we as a species should do anything but continue to ignorantly destroy our global ecosystems?
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It
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    Member Mkay's Avatar
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    Iofthetaiga; To answer your question directly. Because your side seems to be losing the long term argument. The current policy of the Climate Change folks seems to be " The science is settled, there can be no more discussions, we will not take any questions, we will not debate you, and if you disagree with us, we will call you Neanderthals, deniers, climate criminals, ignorant, shills for coal". In europe there are suggestions of arresting sceptic scientists. You can hardly find any debates on YouTube longer than 5 minutes, and that's not because the other side won't show up. At virtually every IPCC annual meeting there is a shadow meeting of scientists on the sceptic side. What's the harm in letting them speak? If this is such a slam dunk why the fear of debate?
    My child was inmate of the month at Mat-Su pre-trial Correctional facility.

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mkay View Post
    What's the harm in letting them speak? If this is such a slam dunk why the fear of debate?
    You misinterpret what I was intending to convey. I am not at all opposed to letting anyone speak, ever. Nor do I fear debate. But I grow weary of arguing with those who choose to remain defiantly, willfully ignorant. I think at some point we have to admit it's a waste of time and breath.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It
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    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
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    To me it is not really a debate on whether or not there is global warming occurring.
    The fact that the earth is warming is in fact...well,a fact.
    What the debate is or should be today is this: Is man exacerbating global warming.
    You see they have scientifically proven that we have gone through at least 5 ice ages in the past.
    One can assume we have also gone through 5 warm ups from those ice ages.
    So what we really need to decide is are we warming faster than we did in previous times? And is man the reason for it?
    When one looks at the injection of sulfate aerosols into the high reaches of the atmosphere during the very large volcanic eruptions that occur sporadically each century or earths other natural events that makes me wonder if it is us or nature causing this warming trend.
    Now I'm not saying we do not play a part as we most certainly do. But who plays the larger part in this warming trend?
    "The closer I get to nature the farther I am from idiots"

    "Fishing and Hunting are only an addiction if you're trying to quit"

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    What caused the mini ice age or any of the past ice ages?

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by kasilofchrisn View Post
    ...............................................
    .................................................. .................................................. ............................................
    Now I'm not saying we do not play a part as we most certainly do. But who plays the larger part in this warming trend?
    If we 'certainly play a part', then why are we still even bothering to debate accelerated climate change with minority naysayers on whether or not to act on our recognized role?

    Whether a small or 'larger' part, it could perhaps make the difference in the overall future outcome. We can act on things our numbers contribute far easier and more predictably than, by example, control volcanic eruptions or detour catastrophic celestial events.

    Accepting some responsibility rather than blowing it off while awaiting the rapture would seem a more intelligent and humane approach for the future.
    That being said, this topic usually does, most unfortunately, turn into significantly a religious and philosophical debate while the science gets infinitely contorted at will - one reason some folks would perhaps rather be waterboarded (exaggerating) than attempt discussing it for the umpteenth time.
    "Punish the monkey - let the organ grinder go" - Mark Knopfler

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