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Thread: accuracy question

  1. #1
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    Default accuracy question

    My Brother has a savage 223/ 20 ga combo gun. Last summer he went to shoot it and mistakenly loaded a 6x45 wildcat rnd into a 5.56
    rifle the cartridge will chamber and fired it. He brought it back home because the spent rnd had to be tapper out with cleaning rod. Now I have been shooting it but I can get no accuracy out of it. It is keyholeing at 50 yards I have cleaned it with bore scrubber for lead and copper fouling, but so far it has not helped. Do you think that firing 1 rnd that is almost 1/2 a mm larger than the bore would permanently damage the barrel and destroy the accuracy.

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    That terrible, those are good guns. The difference in size is only about 2 hundredths of an inch. The case was stuck but not very much if you tap it out. My guess is that there was some other reason for the accuracy problem. Could have some to do with the muzzle and tapping out the stuck case. The crown is very important to accuracy and easy to damage. having that touched up just a little buy a good gunsmith and that may solve your accuracy problem. Also is ammo the same as the ammo that gave good accuracy. Were the conditions for shooting the same. Summer v winter can make a difference. How much accuracy did you loose, could it be just a bad shooting day? I would try itonce again and then find a good gun smith if you still feel there is still a problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by codwyguy1 View Post
    My Brother has a savage 223/ 20 ga combo gun. Last summer he went to shoot it and mistakenly loaded a 6x45 wildcat rnd into a 5.56
    rifle the cartridge will chamber and fired it. He brought it back home because the spent rnd had to be tapper out with cleaning rod. Now I have been shooting it but I can get no accuracy out of it. It is keyholeing at 50 yards I have cleaned it with bore scrubber for lead and copper fouling, but so far it has not helped. Do you think that firing 1 rnd that is almost 1/2 a mm larger than the bore would permanently damage the barrel and destroy the accuracy.

    Could be many things going on here....
    1) The rifling may well be damaged, or chock full of jacket material from an oversized bullet. This is gunsmith territory for sure.

    2) Those old Savage guns had a very slow twist rate by today's standards- if you're keyholing on the target...make sure you aren't shooting heavy bullets that are so in vogue these days. The 1:14 twist these guns commonly have isn't going to work with 62gr and up bullets very well. Some don't do all that hot with 55gr. bullets. These guns need light bullets to really work.

    3) The crown could be beat up after tapping out the case. Another gunsmith item.
    "I do not deal in hypotheticals. The world, as it is, is vexing enough..." Col. Stonehill, True Grit

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    Thanks for your input. I was using 55gr bullets I think those rifles have about a 1 in 15 twist so I know you can't shoot heavy bullets. The crown is an idea i can address. I guess i am mostly looking for opinions as to whether their was permanent damage done to the rifling.

  5. #5

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    If you poked a cleaning rod down a barrel to tap a case out I think you would be hard pressed to cause damage to the muzzle, especially with an aluminum or coated rod.

    I think a 6x45 is like a .223 Rem. or 5.56 Nato necked up to fire 6mm bullets like a .243 Win. and I have a hard time picturing it going down a .224 diameter barrel. Was the case tapped out or a bullet and the case. I'm surprised some real damage was not done to the gun if that is what happened and I would have a gun smith you trust look the gun over.

    Maybe I am confused by what actually happened?

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    I'd sure run a scope through the barrel to see if there wasn't some barrel swaging going on with the high pressures as well as bullet swaging at the throat and beyond. Heavy copper fouling is another good guess, but better news, because cleaning could get rid of that and restore the accuracy. In either case, if the bullet isn't getting a good "bite" in the rifling as it starts moving keyholes would not be surprising.

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    Yes that is what I am saying .243 diameter bullet down a 224 diameter barrel. I used to have a AR 15 with 6x45 wildcat barrel on it basicly just a necked up 223 rnd to 6mm or .243. I had a couple rnds of it sitting on a shelf and my brother thought it was 223. We did just tap it out with a cleaning rod. I went out and checked the muzzle and it looks fine. is their tell tale visual signs I can look for. Would a gunsmith have an instrument to check for damage?

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    Still confused on my end. So a 6mm bullet went through a .224 diameter bore? If that is the case the bore has to be damaged and I am amazed you can't see the damage. Go to a gun smith.

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    I visually inspected the bore and can see nothing by just looking and I have probably put a box of ammo through it since the incident. Their is no indication on the spent cases of a problem with the chamber, spent cartridges come out easily. At 50 yards on a rest it shoots a 3 shot group of about 3 inches and all 3 rnds were key holed. A 6mm bullet went down a 5.56 pipe but I can not see any damage just by looking, i guess the next step is to have my gun smith look at it

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    One other thing the twist of the rifling, this rifle was originally a 222 they used even lighter bullets but i will still take it to the gunsmith he is the guy that rechambered it for 223

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    Listen to Hodgeman.

    I hadda 222 with 1-14" twist.

    It would NOT stabilize 55 grain bullets. They would miss a 100 yd target completely, and keyhole at shorter ranges. (Like 50 yds.). I hadda go to 50 grain.

    Old Speer manual said 55 grains was IFFY in 1-14".

    I suspect that Savage OU wouldn't be terribly to begin with, but dunno.

    I doubt gun was damaged.

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    Those old Savage rifles have a slow, I mean molasses on a cold day slow, twist rate.

    Listen to Hodgeman. He knows of what he speaks.

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    How did you get a 6x45 in a 223 chamber? There should not be room in the chamber neck for that much bullet and the neck of the case. I don't think you could get a 6x45 in a 223 chamber without a hammer. You're saying he put a round in a hole that is about .020 bigger than the hole. Before you do anything else, try chambering another one of those 6x45s in that gun without forcing it. I don't think you can do it. If you can, the neck of the chamber is way over size. Also you can measure the neck of one of the rounds you have since fired in the gun. I'm betting the neck of the fired round is over .015 smaller than a loaded 6x45.
    Something here does not sound right. Sounds more like an over pressure 223 round was fire in the gun.

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    I was not their I don't know how hart he pushed on it. I hope like Hodgeman said and I need to try it with a lighter bullets it is kind of disappointing the reason why it was re chambered to 223 was to ease of getting ammo for it. I have some 45gr .224 bullets I will load a couple of those and see what happens. I just hope this rifle is OK when Terry bought this he only paid around 150$ for it but they are worth a lot more now, but not if you cant hit the broadside of a barn from the inside. Thanks for all of the suggestions I will let you know how it comes out after I try some lighter bullets

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    Quote Originally Posted by rbuck351 View Post
    How did you get a 6x45 in a 223 chamber? There should not be room in the chamber neck for that much bullet and the neck of the case. I don't think you could get a 6x45 in a 223 chamber without a hammer. You're saying he put a round in a hole that is about .020 bigger than the hole. Before you do anything else, try chambering another one of those 6x45s in that gun without forcing it. I don't think you can do it. If you can, the neck of the chamber is way over size. Also you can measure the neck of one of the rounds you have since fired in the gun. I'm betting the neck of the fired round is over .015 smaller than a loaded 6x45.
    Something here does not sound right. Sounds more like an over pressure 223 round was fire in the gun.
    I would imagine that the bullet got pushed back in the case when it was chambered and then fired.

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    So what most of you are saying firing a 6mm bullet in a 224 bore will not damage the bore?? Wow the stuff I read on here... That barrel is trash guaranteed it has a bulge somewhere in that barrel as others said take it to a smith... It could have a 1-32 twist but after firing a 6mm bullet down the tube I'm surprised it will even key hole bullets. Your brother should thank his lucky stars he wasn't picking pieces of a barrel out of his head..

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    Quote Originally Posted by redale View Post
    That terrible, those are good guns. The difference in size is only about 2 hundredths of an inch. The case was stuck but not very much if you tap it out. My guess is that there was some other reason for the accuracy problem. Could have some to do with the muzzle and tapping out the stuck case. The crown is very important to accuracy and easy to damage. having that touched up just a little buy a good gunsmith and that may solve your accuracy problem. Also is ammo the same as the ammo that gave good accuracy. Were the conditions for shooting the same. Summer v winter can make a difference. How much accuracy did you loose, could it be just a bad shooting day? I would try itonce again and then find a good gun smith if you still feel there is still a problem.
    yeah let's just forget the guys brother shot a 6mm bullet down the barrel of a 223. Yeah pretty sure that has nothing to do with horrible accuracy problems..

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    This is a break open gun that you push the round in the chamber with your fingers. You would have to push hard enough to force the bullet back in the case while neck sizing the 6mm down to 223. The 6mm bullet would not be pushed all the way in the case, only as far as where the 224 part of the 6mm bullet hits the leade. This leaves most of the bullet still in the neck which would have to be sized down enough to chamber as well as the case neck. I don't think you are tough enough to do that. This is not a bolt gun that can cam force an over size bullet/neck into a chamber. I'm thinking more like an over loaded 223 was shot in the gun. Try loading a 6mmx45 into the gun and see if it's even possible. I think you're going to find out you can't chamber it without a hammer. Try it and prove me wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rbuck351 View Post
    This is a break open gun that you push the round in the chamber with your fingers. You would have to push hard enough to force the bullet back in the case while neck sizing the 6mm down to 223. The 6mm bullet would not be pushed all the way in the case, only as far as where the 224 part of the 6mm bullet hits the leade. This leaves most of the bullet still in the neck which would have to be sized down enough to chamber as well as the case neck. I don't think you are tough enough to do that. This is not a bolt gun that can cam force an over size bullet/neck into a chamber. I'm thinking more like an over loaded 223 was shot in the gun. Try loading a 6mmx45 into the gun and see if it's even possible. I think you're going to find out you can't chamber it without a hammer. Try it and prove me wrong.
    Yeah- the more I think about this, the less likely it seems that a 6x45 was actually fired through the gun. Not sure what would have to happen to even get the gun to close short of completely crushing the case. I'm also pretty sure the amount of pressure required to squirt a 6mm down a .224 bore would completely wreck a break open gun.

    I guess the question to the OP would be- how do you know that gun was actually fired with the 6x45? I'm guessing the outcome would be a lot more dramatic than just a stuck case.

    In break open guns like the M24, a rimless case can be problematic to extract to begin with- most break open rifles are rimmed cartridges for a reason. I can't recall what the extractor looks like on a M24, but I'm guessing it's got some play in it.
    "I do not deal in hypotheticals. The world, as it is, is vexing enough..." Col. Stonehill, True Grit

  20. #20

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    Gotta love a good mystery guys! Couple of questions to the poster.

    Is it possible that the shooter had some 5.56 Nato loads and fired one in the .223 cambered barrel? That could cause a problem due to the different dimensions and the bullet could of been jammed into the barrels rifling. Or is it possible a .224 bullet was loaded into the wildcat 6x45 case and the bullet was jammed into the rifling?

    Either scenario is potentially harmful to the rifle. But I am not really familiar with the 6x45 wildcat dimensions, so I'm just speculating. If it is ever figured out for sure please let us know the "final answer'.

    I wish "gun bugs" or "ADFields" would chime in. Hard to beat years of gunsmiths experience as they see some weird stuff.

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