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Thread: Are the wrong people being blamed

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    Default Are the wrong people being blamed

    I am new and do not have the breadth of background that many here have. But it seems to me users blaming users for their perceived problems is not very useful in solving problems. Think about it. Set betters and drifters fish when, where, and how they are allowed by regulation or as ordered by Adf&g. Same for guides and guided sports, and dip betters. If a net fisherman catches a King, he may keep it according to law. If a guide catches one in a legal area he is not breaking the law. If there are too many guides, why blame them if they are not breaking the law. The ADF&G had extra ordinary authority to make adjustments as needed. The Board of Fish make regulations. The legislature, statutes. The Park service, guides. The users just exercise their lawful rights. Why are they to blame for anything.
    The public has significant influence what laws are passed. After intense lobbying by special interest groups who do their thing to persuade legislators laws are passed. The same thing happens with the board of fish members. From what I have read and been told members are heavily lobbied by user group organizations and individuals all trying to get regulatory help. Some are more effective than others. But in the end it is the legislators and board which makes the rules. The Dept is to follow the rules but it has this over riding authority to fix things when needed, and can go further than the rules to make sure conservation is preserved. So if there is a problem why are users blamed when all they are doing is following these rules and law?
    Perhaps the effort should not be focused on our neighbors or other users, rather it should be focused on changing the rules if needed. This guy Penny does not make the rules yet a lot of energy is spent in blaming him for problems. The same for the guy who broke the residency rules. He was not responsible for the rules governing fishing.
    I think the ADF&G is primarily responsible for making sure that things run smooth and provide accurate information. But have they been doing their job? How many times have they changed how they determine the number of Kings that get to spawning grounds. They have changed counters, locations, methods used to count, and really have changed their minds on how, when, and where to open fisheries depending on politics and not always on science. Let's stop blaming people who just want to follow the rules. Let's place the blame where it belongs: on the managers and the policy makers. And that starts with the Governor and the Commissioner.
    Just my take. I just don't want to see honest Alaskans who are trying to benefit from our natural resources within the law be blamed for problems they do not create. Kind of like blaming an Alaskan for accepting his PFD when the state needs to cut expenses, rather than blaming the state for issuing a PFD. Not meant to be in favor of cutting PFDs or not. Just an example of not putting responsibility where it belongs.

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    Just because an activity is legal doesn't mean it's not to blame for certain outcomes. I feel like for the most part, individual guides are not being blamed, the guiding industry is what is getting the blame. Individual set netters are not getting the blame, the act of set netting is. You are absolutely right, it's up to our government and agencies to see that things are managed in a sustainable manner, unfortunately there's too many special interest groups, lobbyists, and just plain old greedy sons of guns that make that like a seemingly improbable task. Why does Bob Penney get the blame? Because he's instrumental in hindering our managers from doing their job.

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    onthego - first welcome to the discussions.

    At a fundamental level, you are absolutely correct. The focus should be directed to those that are accountable for the decisions that result in on-the-water actions. However, most of the frequent commenters here are able to see why some of the actions of ADFG, BoF and the legislators are being taken. It gets a bit personal when the representatives of some of the groups that are successful in influencing the decision makers are known to all.

    Part of what you see on here is an outlet for people to express their frustrations against what they perceive as problems. It is also known that some of the decision makers occasionally read these comments and many commenters want the decision makers to know that we have some insights into who they are listening to and would like them to understand that their particular points of view are incorrect from the commenters perspective. Not every member of the public has the same degree of influence, what I think is unfair is when some of that influence comes from individuals or groups that misrepresent the truth, yet still manage to have a disproportionate degree of influence on the decision makers. If a line or two that I write gets a decision maker to rethink their position, great. If my words change the approach or influence a "highly influential" interest group representative, I'll take that too. Like almost everyone else, there is a thing or two that I wish I wouldn't have penned, even anonymously. I try not to attack the class of users that are just following the rules and regulations that the decision makers provide them. But those that have undue influence and speak mistruths do need to be called out in every venue available. For me that is not one sided, over the years I've seen it happen from nearly every user group interest in Cook Inlet.

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    If I were advising any user organization that believes the competition is using Illegal tactics I would say: file complaints with the appropriate authority and issue a press release. Or if that avenue is not available I would fight fire with fire. Why do some of the commercial organizations not have their own fund raising events, have lavish banquets where legislators and other public officials are invited, get interesting and valuable items to be donated and then auctioned at the event. Do multiple events and focus on women and children's fund raising events. I would advise entertaining as many policy makers in the name of education as possible. In the case of set set netters I would consider a youth symposium with a very nice dinner for kids and adults (policy makers and dept managers should be invited and participate in educating the kids in the commercial use of salmon), and have the media involved. What appears to be happening is that one side is better at the lobbying effort and it might be because of their many fund raising events that end up giving it the opportunity of obtaining influence. Policy makers first goal is to get re elected. They vote in such a manner to first achieve that goal and then look at the merits. If you are going to play the game you must use all the tools. Campaign contributions are the coin of the realm. And it takes surprisingly little to get the attention of legislators.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onthego View Post
    If I were advising any user organization that believes the competition is using Illegal tactics I would say: file complaints with the appropriate authority and issue a press release. Or if that avenue is not available I would fight fire with fire. Why do some of the commercial organizations not have their own fund raising events, have lavish banquets where legislators and other public officials are invited, get interesting and valuable items to be donated and then auctioned at the event. Do multiple events and focus on women and children's fund raising events. I would advise entertaining as many policy makers in the name of education as possible. In the case of set set netters I would consider a youth symposium with a very nice dinner for kids and adults (policy makers and dept managers should be invited and participate in educating the kids in the commercial use of salmon), and have the media involved. What appears to be happening is that one side is better at the lobbying effort and it might be because of their many fund raising events that end up giving it the opportunity of obtaining influence. Policy makers first goal is to get re elected. They vote in such a manner to first achieve that goal and then look at the merits. If you are going to play the game you must use all the tools. Campaign contributions are the coin of the realm. And it takes surprisingly little to get the attention of legislators.
    Onthego: you obviously are unaware that the drift fleet organization, UCIDA has done many of the things you suggest. It has wined and dined the Governor to the point that he has fulfilled or tried to fulfill campaign promises that favor their interests. It had local
    legislators, local municipalities, the local paper, and some of the Dept's staff all supporting its interests. If any organization is strong at lobbying it is the commercial sector in Alaska. There is UFA, and many many othervorganizations, all with comfortable budgets and executive directors all pulling for the commercial agenda. On the sports side there is only one organization that is effective, KRSA. And yes it is effective. But don't for a minute think that in the Upper Cook Inlet that commercial interests are not very active in their lobbying efforts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Questairtoo View Post
    Onthego: you obviously are unaware that the drift fleet organization, UCIDA has done many of the things you suggest. It has wined and dined the Governor to the point that he has fulfilled or tried to fulfill campaign promises that favor their interests. It had local
    legislators, local municipalities, the local paper, and some of the Dept's staff all supporting its interests. If any organization is strong at lobbying it is the commercial sector in Alaska. There is UFA, and many many othervorganizations, all with comfortable budgets and executive directors all pulling for the commercial agenda. On the sports side there is only one organization that is effective, KRSA. And yes it is effective. But don't for a minute think that in the Upper Cook Inlet that commercial interests are not very active in their lobbying efforts.
    Ohhhhhh man, possibly the most bovine fecal post ever written.......
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskaHippie View Post
    Ohhhhhh man, possibly the most bovine fecal post ever written.......
    "bovine fecal". And there is the " pound sand" from Fun. Professional terms of art. All I can say is 'no wonder'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Questairtoo View Post
    Onthego: you obviously are unaware that the drift fleet organization, UCIDA has done many of the things you suggest. It has wined and dined the Governor to the point that he has fulfilled or tried to fulfill campaign promises that favor their interests. It had local
    legislators, local municipalities, the local paper, and some of the Dept's staff all supporting its interests. If any organization is strong at lobbying it is the commercial sector in Alaska. There is UFA, and many many othervorganizations, all with comfortable budgets and executive directors all pulling for the commercial agenda. On the sports side there is only one organization that is effective, KRSA. And yes it is effective. But don't for a minute think that in the Upper Cook Inlet that commercial interests are not very active in their lobbying efforts.
    Questairtoo, I agree with you. All organizations in UCI have an agenda and want the ear of a decision maker. So no one has clean hands and yes lately the Gov. is meeting with UCIDA. More to do with his personal relationship with some UCI fisherman and a loyalty to them. I know a number of meetings have come about because of his long term personal relationship with one person (not Roland). But in reality not a lot has happened from those meetings.

    Relative to blame the user groups are too blame when they spread misinformation and use political clout to influence a decision. ADF&G budget is constantly threatened by user groups dissatisfied with an allocation outcome. Various Commissioners have been threatened with job loss if they make a decision the wrong way. So user groups that lie, cheat, buy, threaten, bully, or other unethical practices have a shared blame in decision making.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    Questairtoo, I agree with you. All organizations in UCI have an agenda and want the ear of a decision maker. So no one has clean hands and yes lately the Gov. is meeting with UCIDA. More to do with his personal relationship with some UCI fisherman and a loyalty to them. I know a number of meetings have come about because of his long term personal relationship with one person (not Roland). But in reality not a lot has happened from those meetings.

    Relative to blame the user groups are too blame when they spread misinformation and use political clout to influence a decision. ADF&G budget is constantly threatened by user groups dissatisfied with an allocation outcome. Various Commissioners have been threatened with job loss if they make a decision the wrong way. So user groups that lie, cheat, buy, threaten, bully, or other unethical practices have a shared blame in decision making.
    A refreshing post. I do not blame any user group for using political clout to influence a decision. That's their job! They are stakeholders trying to use any lawful means to protect their piece of the pie. BOF members and politicians should be able to separate truth from lies. That's their job. And buying a result from an elected official is illegal and I don't think you are making that accusation. Campaign contributions and wining and dining are indirect and legal ways to get results. Thrats against a commissioner have no place. But I would guess that they'd be very counter productive. Nerka, as long as there is so much money involved, politics and all the garbage that goes with it will play a strong role in fisheries management and fisheries policy. In the meantime historically no one has really lost and no one has really won. And the allocation fights will continue. Because of lots of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$

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    I think the user groups and user group orgs deserve a lot of the credit/blame for what happens. The OP pointed to the Gov and Commish - but they are only effective while in that elected position. Many of these problems are much more long-term. These user groups and the orgs that represent them are a constant. I don't think sinking to the lowest common denominator is necessarily in the best long-term interests of the users or the resource. I understand that in order to get political results one must put their pride in a box and go lobby for what they want, but it's completely possible to be effective AND ethical. There are a lot of resource users who simply can't or don't want to throw lavish parties, wine and dine influential people, and give out valuable gift bags in order to retain their right to access this public resource. We shouldn't have to.

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    I don't have a dog in this fight, and mostly lurk this section of the forum for something to do while eating my popcorn, but after reading what I've read here, I have to say:

    I think quest and onthego have an affiliation of some manner.

    Try bumping up your speed when dragging bait

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    So Quest you missed one darn good lunch, you can ask my dog! So none of us know who you are, but we do know where you stand. Now all I want to know is if you are being paid by any part of KRSA or just Bob on the side? I make most of my money fixing boats and other thing in my shop, and on a good year gillnetting in the Inlet helps out a lot! I just hate to think I might be paying for you to do what you are doing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MGH55 View Post
    So Quest you missed one darn good lunch, you can ask my dog! So none of us know who you are, but we do know where you stand. Now all I want to know is if you are being paid by any part of KRSA or just Bob on the side? I make most of my money fixing boats and other thing in my shop, and on a good year gillnetting in the Inlet helps out a lot! I just hate to think I might be paying for you to do what you are doing.
    Remember MG, there aren't winners and losers, just lots of $$$$$$$$.

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    Quote Originally Posted by akshootnscoot View Post
    I don't have a dog in this fight, and mostly lurk this section of the forum for something to do while eating my popcorn, but after reading what I've read here, I have to say:

    I think quest and onthego have an affiliation of some manner.

    Try bumping up your speed when dragging bait
    You nailed it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MGH55 View Post
    So Quest you missed one darn good lunch, you can ask my dog! So none of us know who you are, but we do know where you stand. Now all I want to know is if you are being paid by any part of KRSA or just Bob on the side? I make most of my money fixing boats and other thing in my shop, and on a good year gillnetting in the Inlet helps out a lot! I just hate to think I might be paying for you to do what you are doing.
    Sorry I missed out on them kibbles. Maybe next time I see you at the shop we can have a cup of joe together. You will recognize me from the new Mercedes I got from KRSA and Penny for all the good work I have done on this forum. Another year of good work and I have been promised yacht of my own in San Diego. Have to go now. Need to earn my pay and think up some ways to stir the pot and get the Fab five / six agitated.
    Oh, by the way, I have been analyzing these posts and I think that there is some Affiliation between some of you. I think that I just nailed it.
    Onthego, please PM me and let me know what color your Mercedes is. With our 'affiliation' going for us we ought to be able to get more out of the old man.

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    Hey, I want a piece of that. Where the heck is my car? I really gave up posting months ago. My head hurt from running into the fab 5 at every turn. This is not a forum anymore, its a personal attack station. At least in my eyes. Good luck boys!!!!!!!!!
    If a dipnetter dips a fish and there is no one around to see/hear it, Did he really dip?

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Questairtoo View Post
    Oh, by the way, I have been analyzing these posts and I think that there is some Affiliation between some of you. I think that I just nailed it.
    You nailed it. Our affiliation is that we are resource users who see this as more than a political game - we actually depend on and care about our access to and the sustainability of this resource.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thewhop2000 View Post
    Hey, I want a piece of that. Where the heck is my car? I really gave up posting months ago. My head hurt from running into the fab 5 at every turn. This is not a forum anymore, its a personal attack station. At least in my eyes. Good luck boys!!!!!!!!!
    It's called a hangover Whop. I've heard they get worse with age

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    Quote Originally Posted by smithtb View Post
    It's called a hangover Whop. I've heard they get worse with age
    So you attack the Fab 5 and then run away. I do have a question for you Whop. I cannot find any documentation for your group anywhere. Are you registered with the State, do you collect funds, how many members do you have, do you file reports with the federal government as an organization or club, just what is your Association legal status? I always wonder when someone says they represent some group or are on some board just what that group or board is. Can you point me in the right direction to find out the information above?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    So you attack the Fab 5 and then run away. I do have a question for you Whop. I cannot find any documentation for your group anywhere. Are you registered with the State, do you collect funds, how many members do you have, do you file reports with the federal government as an organization or club, just what is your Association legal status? I always wonder when someone says they represent some group or are on some board just what that group or board is. Can you point me in the right direction to find out the information above?
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.” ― H.S.T.
    "Character is how you treat those who can do nothing for you."

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