Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 32

Thread: sako reloads very tight in my winchester 70

  1. #1
    Charterboat Operator kodiakcombo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Old Harbor, Alaska, United States
    Posts
    1,360

    Default sako reloads very tight in my winchester 70

    I have a hell of a time closing my bolt in my new win mod 70 with reloads for my sako, is this normal? Im wondering if I just need to seat the bullet further into the case? once the bolt is closed shoots fine no signs of pressure, kills whatever Im aiming at, but not good when you want to shoot at another deer and you struggle to get the bolt closed.
    Providing trips for multilpe species for over 20 yrs
    www.kodiakcombos.com

  2. #2

    Default

    Could just as well be a little more "swelling" low in the case due to a larger chamber in your Sako. Sizing dies don't size 100% of the length of the case, even being called "full length" sizers. Could also be that you set the depth of the sizing die for the Sako, which puts the shoulder slightly too far forward for the Win.

    Easy enough to check. Chamber one of your Sako rounds in the Win, but don't fire it. Eject carefully and inspect the bullet for rifling marks. If your bullets are seated out far enough to engage the Win rifling, the bullets will most certainly be marked. In a worst case, the bullet might even stick in the rifling and pull free from the case as you try to eject the unfired round. Seen it happen, and the powder spilled into the action is an unholy mess.

    Final test, after firing the Sako loads in the Win, adjust the dies for the Win and try loading them again. If you're still getting the tightness, it's neither the shoulder nor the seating depth- rather it's that base diameter.

  3. #3
    Member 2jumpersplease's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Fairbanks
    Posts
    100

    Default

    Does a sized, empty round fit in the Winchester? If you extract a round without firing from the chamber of the Winchester is it a different length than it was before you put it in?

    I would think the the answers to these questions would tell you whether to adjust the sizing die or the seating die. Have fun!

    -Tom

  4. #4
    Member AK375HH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Wasilla
    Posts
    610

    Default

    I've had this happen with a couple rifles. I've found that it isn't the rifle, it isn't the resize, but it's the crimp. A roll crimp that's crimped too hard seems to swell the neck of the case. The cure I found is lee factory crimp dies. Better crimp, and bolts close easily.
    It's not skybusting if you fold em'.

  5. #5

    Default

    I had a Savage 243 that any once fired brass would work in. However once you fired a round in that Savage even factory ammo it would never size down enough to work in my Ruger or my Weatherby Vanguard. Once the shell holder is coming up tight against the bottom of the die you are sizing as far as possible. Like BB stated most likely the Sako chamber is in spec but the brass that you are using was fire formed to another chamber beyond what the die can restore. The very bottom of the case near the web never gets resized as the case does not go up into the die far enough to accomplish this unless you have small base dies.

    What cartridge are we dealing with? In my case it was the 243 as stated. What I did was took a number 3 RCBS shell holder and ground a few thousandths off the top of it so the ram would thus travel a few thousandths further and push the case that much further into the die. Since I knew it was the base of the case that was oversized I was not wanting to set the shoulder back so I just ran them up into a 30-06 die which has the same base measurements as a 243 but is enough longer that there is nothing for the shoulder to come into contact with. If the reason for the hard chambering had been because of a the shoulder coming into contact in the chamber to early then most likely the brass is to long from base to shoulder and it did not get full length sized. If it is coming into contact because the Sako has a short chamber(which I doubt) then it should be tight with factory ammo too. In which case I would send it back. However in a pinch you could use the shortened shell holder which by forcing the case a tad bit further into the die( correct die for your cartridge) would set the shoulder back a bit. It takes a bit of playing to get it just right and just a little two much material taken off the top of a shell holder you will set the shoulder too far back and your head space will be off. I got a hold of my shortened #3 shell holder by accident recently and pushed the shoulder to far back on some 7mm-08 brass. I ended up with 50 rounds that would chamber but were so loose that the firing pin would not reach the primer unless I held the gun pointed straight up into the air thus gravity had the case sitting flat on the bolt face. I fired all 50 rounds straight up into a large overhanging branch. Doing so fire formed the brass to my chamber. Nothing was lost other than 50 bullets/primers and a third of a can of 4320.

    The best advice is to start out with new brass for every new gun and dedicate it to that gun for subsequent reloading. I have 3 different 243s and I keep fired brass dedicated to the gun it was originally fired in. Same for my 3 7mm-08s. It's a little head ache that saves a lot of grief when hunting/shooting and reloading.

    I am willing to bet that if you start off with brand new brass, full length sized and fire it only in the Sako then you will never have an issue with hard chambering in that gun. These issues usually crop up when shooting brass that has been fired in another chamber.

  6. #6

    Default

    Yeah. Savage 99's chambers were (are) notorious for being a little oversize in the base, particularly the 308 and 243. So much so, in fact, that your safest bet was to spend the extra buxx for a RCBS SB sizing die (SB=Small Base) right from the getgo. My solution was to pull the stem from the 308 SB die and pass the 243 cases through that before running them into the regular 243 sizer (SB dies in 243 were unavailable at the time). Thankfully no sign of it in either my 284 or 358. My 250 Savage was a whole nother matter. I could get 4 mild reloads from a case or two near max before the sized cases would no longer chamber. But SB dies for the 250 were unavailable. My solution was to buy the SB die for a 22-250 and hack it off just below the neck. Done.

  7. #7
    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Tanana Valley AK
    Posts
    7,224

    Default

    The other option is not to try to make your brass cross-compatible with all your differently sized chambers. Keep your reloads sorted specific to individual rifles.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It
    #Resist

  8. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    SwampView AK, Overlooking Mt. Mckinley and Points Beyond.
    Posts
    8,816

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    The other option is not to try to make your brass cross-compatible with all your differently sized chambers. Keep your reloads sorted specific to individual rifles.
    That would be my solution.

    For example, I wouldn't expect the same load to work we'll in all 3 of my 7X57s, anyway.

    SOTN
    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
    You can't out-give God.

  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Wasilla
    Posts
    515

    Default

    Sold my Winchester and kept my Sako for exactly the same reason. If you mess with the reloads you can get them to work fine in both rifles but I was never happy with the Winchester. Try bumping the shoulder of the case back a little, if that helps move a little more.

  10. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    SwampView AK, Overlooking Mt. Mckinley and Points Beyond.
    Posts
    8,816

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kodiakcombo View Post
    I have a hell of a time closing my bolt in my new win mod 70 with reloads for my sako, is this normal? Im wondering if I just need to seat the bullet further into the case? once the bolt is closed shoots fine no signs of pressure, kills whatever Im aiming at, but not good when you want to shoot at another deer and you struggle to get the bolt closed.
    I would like to point out.... Before shooting ANY reload you should KNOW that the bullet is NOT contacting the lands. (Except in those instances where it is intended, and the load is worked up that way.)

    If the bullet IS seated long for the chamber, and contacting the rifling, what usually happens, is that the bullet is pushed back into the case, which would likely create a dangerous condition. And you're correct, that could make for hard chambering. The 1st time, anyway.

    SOTN
    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
    You can't out-give God.

  11. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    SwampView AK, Overlooking Mt. Mckinley and Points Beyond.
    Posts
    8,816

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kodiakcombo View Post
    I have a hell of a time closing my bolt in my new win mod 70 with reloads for my sako, is this normal? Im wondering if I just need to seat the bullet further into the case? once the bolt is closed shoots fine no signs of pressure, kills whatever Im aiming at, but not good when you want to shoot at another deer and you struggle to get the bolt closed.
    I would like to point out.... Before shooting ANY reload you should KNOW that the bullet is NOT contacting the lands. (Except in those instances where it is intended, and the load is worked up that way.)

    If the bullet IS seated long for the chamber, and contacting the rifling, what usually happens, is that the bullet is pushed back into the case, which would likely create a dangerous condition. And you're correct, that could make for hard chambering. The 1st time, anyway.

    SOTN
    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
    You can't out-give God.

  12. #12

    Default

    What Brown Bear said is spot on as usual and what others said about loading for each individual gun is spot on too. Ammo manufactures load their ammo to specs that will fit in about any industry factory spec chamber. So there is another option. Keeping the base diameter from expanding on belted magnum cases that have been fired a few times can be an issue.

    Yeas ago I bought a belted magnum collet resizing die from Innovative Technologies. It resized the area above the belt on belted magnum cases. You can "google" them and see if you think it should be on your loading bench. Some said it was not needed if you set your die right, but it works for me.

  13. #13
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    SwampView AK, Overlooking Mt. Mckinley and Points Beyond.
    Posts
    8,816

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by .338 mag. View Post
    What Brown Bear said is spot on as usual and what others said about loading for each individual gun is spot on too. Ammo manufactures load their ammo to specs that will fit in about any industry factory spec chamber. So there is another option. Keeping the base diameter from expanding on belted magnum cases that have been fired a few times can be an issue.

    Yeas ago I bought a belted magnum collet resizing die from Innovative Technologies. It resized the area above the belt on belted magnum cases. You can "google" them and see if you think it should be on your loading bench. Some said it was not needed if you set your die right, but it works for me.
    I never had the problem you mention, and I've loaded for 3 different belted cartridges.

    Possibly, such an issue could be due to loading too HOT.

    Some folks, including myself think that "Innovative Technologies" guy to be Full of Beans. He pushes his product on many of the forums. Just tryin to make a dollar, I guess.

    SOTN
    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
    You can't out-give God.

  14. #14
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    I never had the problem you mention, and I've loaded for 3 different belted cartridges.

    Possibly, such an issue could be due to loading too HOT.

    Some folks, including myself think that "Innovative Technologies" guy to be Full of Beans. He pushes his product on many of the forums. Just tryin to make a dollar, I guess.

    SOTN
    "MANY" people have this problem with belted cases and it depends on your chamber, your brass and the loading dies. It has nothing to do with being full of beans and has everything to do with the case bulging just above the belt and the die not sizing this area enough.

    Now read the link below about brass hardness and understand why some brass expands more in the base when fired. And pay attention to how hard Lake City 5.56 brass is compared to other American made brass. Lake City and commercial contract 5.56 ammunition made for the military uses higher grade and harder brass. And soft brass was one of the causes of the jamming problem with the early M16 rifle.

    How Hard is Your Brass? 5.56 and .223 Rem Base Hardness Tests

    http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/05/how-hard-is-your-brass-5-56-and-223-rem-base-hardness-tests/

    Below, 95% of the cases below in my scrap brass bucket are "ONCE FIRED" factory loaded Federal cases with oversized primer pockets due to soft brass.




    TEST RESULTS
    Using Rockwell hardness standards (.062″x100kg, Rockwell “B”), the brass measured as follows:
    LC 2008 = 96
    Lapua 223 Match = 86
    Winchester 223 = 69
    Remington “R-P” = 49
    Summary of Test Results
    Catshooter writes: “For all you guys that have believed that Winchester cases were tougher than Remington — you are vindicated, they are a lot tougher! However, Lake City and Lapua are ‘the pick of the litter'”. Catshooter notes that both Lake City and Lapua are significantly harder than either Winchester and Remington .223 brass. That’s something that we’ve observed empirically (Lapua and LC stand up better to stout loads), but now we have some hard numbers to back that up. Hats off to Catshooter for settling the hardness debate with his Ames Hardness Gauge.





  15. #15

    Default

    I'ze wundering when yude poppup.

  16. #16
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kodiakcombo View Post
    I have a hell of a time closing my bolt in my new win mod 70 with reloads for my sako, is this normal? Im wondering if I just need to seat the bullet further into the case? once the bolt is closed shoots fine no signs of pressure, kills whatever Im aiming at, but not good when you want to shoot at another deer and you struggle to get the bolt closed.
    Cases fired in one rifle are "fireformed" for that chamber and even after full length resizing the brass tries to "spring back" to its fired shape. And this is why cases fired in one rifle do not fit in another chamber after sizing. We live in a plus and minus manufacturing world and no two chambers and dies are the same size and why problems like this happen.

    Example, I buy a lot of once fired Lake City 5.56 brass fired in many different chambers. The first time I full length resize these cases I use a small base die to insure the cases have been sized to minimum SAAMI dimensions. I also count to four before lowering the ram and removing the case from the die, this reduces brass spring back insuring the case stays a smaller diameter.

    Bottom line, do not mix your brass between rifles unless you have dies capable of sizing/reducing the fired cases to fit the smallest chamber. And the "Innovative Technologies" collet die will size your cases smaller above the belt and many people use them.

  17. #17
    Charterboat Operator kodiakcombo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Old Harbor, Alaska, United States
    Posts
    1,360

    Default

    Thanks for all the responses, I pushed the bullets further into the case and now they chamber fine. Looks like I was at 3.4" and Im now at 3.285" the nosler book says max oal is 3.340"
    Providing trips for multilpe species for over 20 yrs
    www.kodiakcombos.com

  18. #18
    Charterboat Operator kodiakcombo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Old Harbor, Alaska, United States
    Posts
    1,360

    Default just a little to long

    strange how chambers are different lengths in the same calibers.
    Quote Originally Posted by kodiakcombo View Post
    Thanks for all the responses, I pushed the bullets further into the case and now they chamber fine. Looks like I was at 3.4" and Im now at 3.285" the nosler book says max oal is 3.340"
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_2874.jpg  
    Providing trips for multilpe species for over 20 yrs
    www.kodiakcombos.com

  19. #19
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Kodiak
    Posts
    73

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kodiakcombo View Post
    strange how chambers are different lengths in the same calibers.
    dude be carefull. the maximum OACL is minimum length. If those rounds fit in your magazine of the Winchester at 3.4 they are not to long. Looks like a -06? Do not seat your bullets that deep. And I wouldn't shoot them.
    Take your nosler book and read the first few sections again, it covers what the oacl is.

  20. #20
    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Tanana Valley AK
    Posts
    7,224

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jrchambers View Post
    the maximum OACL is minimum length.
    Huh?
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It
    #Resist

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •