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Thread: Calling all Bullet Castigators.

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    Default Calling all Bullet Castigators.

    I here tell,

    that Alloy used for casting, contributes to the actual size of the bullet as cast.

    So, if you're using a softer/more lead, alloy, will that result on a larger or smaller size than an Alloy that has more tin and antimony?

    How much difference in size is there? Is it enough to make a difference?

    Thanks

    Smitty of the North
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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Is complicated. Definitely matters; is an important consideration when designing a mould, and choosing an alloy. Antimony helps reduce shrinkage; harder alloy shrinks less than soft alloy; larger diameters shrink more than smaller diameters...

    Invaluable info here: http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_textonly2.pdf
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    It can make a difference but mostly I shoot either wheel weight lead or pure lead. I haven't found more than about .001 difference between one and the other. I always try to get a mold that casts 2 or 3 thou over bore size as it's real easy to size them down and normally not so easy to size them up. I can make them bigger but the nose is usually a different shape than it started. Most of the custom mold makers now make molds that cast what they say or maybe +.001 using wheel weight alloy. I think it's Accurate molds that will custom cut one for you at any size you want using your choice of alloy. NOE makes molds designed to cast at a size that is a couple thou over normal bore size for a given caliber using wheel weight alloy. For instance his molds for 35 cal cast at .360. They are marked as to size and are very close to listed size. Lee rifle molds are notorious for casting under size using wheel weights but they guage using a different alloy. I think Lyman registers their molds to #2 alloy. I just got a new Lee mold for 45/70 by Lee and it's the worst mold for size I have ever seen. It says .459 and casts everywhere from .451 to .457 depending on where you measure it. After running them through my Swag-O-Matic they come out a very round .4585 with very sharp bottom edges and a SWC nose also with nice sharp edges. And they shoot good too.
    Did you cast some with your 7mm mold and find them too small? If so, you are probably not going to pick up enough size to get where you want by changing alloy. Alloy temp makes a little difference as well but normally you cast at what temp casts well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    Is complicated. Definitely matters; is an important consideration when designing a mould, and choosing an alloy. Antimony helps reduce shrinkage; harder alloy shrinks less than soft alloy; larger diameters shrink more than smaller diameters...

    Invaluable info here: http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_textonly2.pdf
    WOW! IO:

    You know all that stuff? I'm impressed.

    Thanks
    SOTN
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbuck351 View Post
    It can make a difference but mostly I shoot either wheel weight lead or pure lead. I haven't found more than about .001 difference between one and the other. I always try to get a mold that casts 2 or 3 thou over bore size as it's real easy to size them down and normally not so easy to size them up. I can make them bigger but the nose is usually a different shape than it started. Most of the custom mold makers now make molds that cast what they say or maybe +.001 using wheel weight alloy. I think it's Accurate molds that will custom cut one for you at any size you want using your choice of alloy. NOE makes molds designed to cast at a size that is a couple thou over normal bore size for a given caliber using wheel weight alloy. For instance his molds for 35 cal cast at .360. They are marked as to size and are very close to listed size. Lee rifle molds are notorious for casting under size using wheel weights but they guage using a different alloy. I think Lyman registers their molds to #2 alloy. I just got a new Lee mold for 45/70 by Lee and it's the worst mold for size I have ever seen. It says .459 and casts everywhere from .451 to .457 depending on where you measure it. After running them through my Swag-O-Matic they come out a very round .4585 with very sharp bottom edges and a SWC nose also with nice sharp edges. And they shoot good too.
    Did you cast some with your 7mm mold and find them too small? If so, you are probably not going to pick up enough size to get where you want by changing alloy. Alloy temp makes a little difference as well but normally you cast at what temp casts well.
    Nawww. I'm dealing with a 45-70 bullet, now. Nose is too large in diameter. If can't loose a bunch, then alloy isn't the problem.

    Thanks.
    SOTN





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    I doubt you can get more than a thou or two at most. You can run the nose only into the proper sizing die. If you come by this way, drop off three or four and I'll see what I can do with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    WOW! IO: You know all that stuff? I'm impressed. Thanks SOTN
    Naw, I don't know nuthin'... That Glen Fryxell guy is pretty smart tho. I lernt some stuff from listenin' to him. Sounds like rbuck is pretty smart too. I reckon he's spot on. If your nose is too big, you might be able to tweak it a thou or two by adjusting alloy, and/or maybe casting temperature. Try increasing lead/decreasing antimony ratio, and/or lowering your mold / pot temp as much as possible while still getting good fill out. And you might be able to concoct a way to size the nose down by running it into a sizing die. Otherwise....a different mould will be in order.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    Nawww. I'm dealing with a 45-70 bullet, now. Nose is too large in diameter. If can't loose a bunch, then alloy isn't the problem.

    Thanks.
    SOTN





    I
    How can the nose be too large in diameter if the whole bullet was pushed through the sizing die?

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    Nawww. I'm dealing with a 45-70 bullet, now. Nose is too large in diameter. If can't loose a bunch, then alloy isn't the problem.

    Thanks.
    SOTN





    I
    Are you working with the bullets that I sent you ? They came out of the same Lee mould that rbuck speaks of. They are #2 alloy and were run through the Lee push through sizer. I just went and measured 4 of them at .4585. The push through sizer makes it impossible for the nose to be oversized unless I'm missing something here.

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    EKC:
    Yes, those are the bullets. I'm using them, but because these 45-70 barrels have a SHORT THROAT, (Chuck Hawks) I hafta seat them deeper than the bullet is designed for, (to the crimping groove.)

    Seated to where the crimping groove they will not chamber. Seating to where the case is onto that little Lee forward bearing ring, and a bit more, they will seat. And, Shoot.

    I think what you may be missing is that the nose of a Bore Riding bullet is smaller than the rest of the bullet. In this case, .454, as opposed to .458 that the rest of the bullet is sized. The bore is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of .450 .

    The bullets are not oversized. The Throat is undersized, in length.

    Sizing doesn't size or even contact the nose, which must contact or enter into the bore.

    I've just been checking all the possibilities for curiositness, (kinda like Cussedness, only different.)

    Also, checking with Stoner, to get a sample of some of his designs, etc. However there are so many of these bullets, I'll be shooting them for a long time.

    Smitty of the North
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    Naw, I don't know nuthin'... That Glen Fryxell guy is pretty smart tho. I lernt some stuff from listenin' to him. Sounds like rbuck is pretty smart too. I reckon he's spot on. If your nose is too big, you might be able to tweak it a thou or two by adjusting alloy, and/or maybe casting temperature. Try increasing lead/decreasing antimony ratio, and/or lowering your mold / pot temp as much as possible while still getting good fill out. And you might be able to concoct a way to size the nose down by running it into a sizing die. Otherwise....a different mould will be in order.
    That's good to know.

    And, I needed to know, even though I ain't moulding these bullets.

    There's nuthin like knowin what you're doin, or in my case, I'll settle for just having some kind of clue.

    Thanks
    SOTN
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbuck351 View Post
    I doubt you can get more than a thou or two at most. You can run the nose only into the proper sizing die. If you come by this way, drop off three or four and I'll see what I can do with them.
    I'll be shooting them, As Is, and just seated deeper. I can't see a problem with that. I'm using a Trapdoor load, and testing with SR4759 .

    Thanks for your help.
    SOTN

    I ben sick. May go to Gun Show tomorry. ?????
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    Sponsor ADfields's Avatar
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    I had told him to drop a long seated round in there with the nose blacked up. What he did instead was drop a bullet down the bore and tap it to mark the nose then he put that next to a loaded round that fits and took a picture. The lands are only maybe .050" to .100" max off the case mouth so the bullet can't be hung out any more than where the ogive is bore diameter because its into the lands . . . so that real round bullet needs to be way deep into the case to chamber.

    My thought is it needs a reamer run down it to give it some freebore to work with or just use Keith type/semi woodcutters type bullets in it.
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    A couple years ago I bought an old Swag-O-Matic and I have a 7x14 mini lathe so I make my own swaging dies for it. I can change the bullet shape or size into most anything I can make a forming die for. I have a 32 S&W long made by Taurus the has way oversize chamber throats at .321 so I made a die that makes a .312 bottom half of the bullet that fits in the case and a .321 top half that fits the throat. The lee 459-405 casts so small and out of round it's not usable as is so I squish them after lubing to a .4585 SWC and seat the to where they are just entering the rifling. So far they are shooting about 3/4" at 50 yds. I have a few more powder trials yet. I'd like to see 1" at 100. You can have a hand full of those to try if you want. I have been casting with 50/50 pure/clip on ww and no leading using FWFL as lube. So far I'm really happy with that EKC 45/70.
    I also figured out how to fix those H&R/NEF single shots that have light firing pin strikes as this one was about 30% fail to fire. Not now. Mine also has a short throat at somewhere around 50 to 100 thou to the rifling but using smokeless there's still plenty of room for powder.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    EKC:
    Yes, those are the bullets. I'm using them, but because these 45-70 barrels have a SHORT THROAT, (Chuck Hawks) I hafta seat them deeper than the bullet is designed for, (to the crimping groove.)

    Seated to where the crimping groove they will not chamber. Seating to where the case is onto that little Lee forward bearing ring, and a bit more, they will seat. And, Shoot.

    I think what you may be missing is that the nose of a Bore Riding bullet is smaller than the rest of the bullet. In this case, .454, as opposed to .458 that the rest of the bullet is sized. The bore is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of .450 .

    The bullets are not oversized. The Throat is undersized, in length.

    Sizing doesn't size or even contact the nose, which must contact or enter into the bore.

    I've just been checking all the possibilities for curiositness, (kinda like Cussedness, only different.)

    Also, checking with Stoner, to get a sample of some of his designs, etc. However there are so many of these bullets, I'll be shooting them for a long time.

    Smitty of the North
    OK, I'm with ya now. For the most part I have never paid any attention to the crimp groove in bullets made from that mould. My 1895G was the same exact way. I have often wondered what gun Lee had in mind when he devised that mould. I'm guessing it was a long throated Sharps or a Trapdoor gun.

    Just pay no nevermind to where they are crimped at on the boolits cuz it don't care much. Just pay attention to over all length in regards to your chamber. And them boolits'll be scootin out the end of that rascal looking for the bullseye as iffen they had eyes or was laser guided.

    Nother thing, ole Butchy who put me onto that mould swore that in his long barreled 45-70 that he would stuff those boolits in the case bassackwards and they shot like wad cutters. I saw it with my own two eyeballs. Now you can try that if you want but I never could find any flaw in the he way they flew when loaded in the supposed manner😯.

    I have a CVA once shooter in 44 mag that has been in the vault for a couple years being ignored. I decided to play with it the other night. My scope pile has kinda dwindled but I found an old steel Weaver Marksman 4x and screwed it on the See Vee Aye Hunter. Then I went and shot frozen cow turds in the big pasture! Bet you guys don't do that in 'laska?😉

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    Here are his pictures now that I found the phone core. There seems to be little approach angle to the lands ether but it does look to be swaging and not cutting.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Andy
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    I had told him to drop a long seated round in there with the nose blacked up. What he did instead was drop a bullet down the bore and tap it to mark the nose then he put that next to a loaded round that fits and took a picture. The lands are only maybe .050" to .100" max off the case mouth so the bullet can't be hung out any more than where the ogive is bore diameter because its into the lands . . . so that real round bullet needs to be way deep into the case to chamber.

    My thought is it needs a reamer run down it to give it some freebore to work with or just use Keith type/semi woodcutters type bullets in it.
    I agree that extending the throat is in order.

    If you are interested, would you check into acquiring a reamer for that, and we could go from there.

    I could load a dummy round with these EKC bullets, seated to the crimp groove for a guide.

    Otherwise, I shoot these bullets seated deep, and maybe find another bullet that has a better fit. For all I know, most other bullet designs would work well.

    BTW, I have no intention of shooting jacketed bullets in this rifle.

    I can't even speculate as to why the short throats, (Chuck Hawks said the 45-70 barrels had short throats, and this'n seems to.) because the gun is so well made and featured, otherwise.

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    I shoot mine engraved a bit with cast. No jump to the lands at all and the bullet is centered, no jump to the lands at all. With a cast boolit you can crimp them anywhere you want or as I do, just straighten the case mouth and call it good.

  19. #19
    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    Here are his pictures now that I found the phone core. There seems to be little approach angle to the lands ether but it does look to be swaging and not cutting.

    Click image for larger version. 

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Views:	17 
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ID:	87687Click image for larger version. 

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    That ain't the nose profile I envisioned when you was askin... A short throat isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially if you're shooting cast. Many, if not most cast shooters would say it's preferable to making the bullet jump. Reckon I'd load 'em out to where they was just touching the lands, and put a real gentle crimp on 'em just like rbuck says. Betcha they shoot gooood that way. Put some lube in that crimp groove, or don't, the bullet won't care. What's that big thumper weigh?
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    That ain't the nose profile I envisioned when you was askin... A short throat isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially if you're shooting cast. Many, if not most cast shooters would say it's preferable to making the bullet jump. Reckon I'd load 'em out to where they was just touching the lands, and put a real gentle crimp on 'em just like rbuck says. Betcha they shoot gooood that way. Put some lube in that crimp groove, or don't, the bullet won't care. What's that big thumper weigh?
    I understand and agree. I load them to touch the lands. But, I'd much prefer not having the bullet so deep in the case. It's workable, not right, IMO.

    SOTN
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    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
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