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Thread: Extrapolating, The THREAD

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    Default Extrapolating, The THREAD

    OK, the Fanciful Title is to DRAMATIZE. This thread may need all the help it can get.

    Don't we all do some "extrapolating", when deciding on a load? I certainly do.

    I may not, usually do not have data for the Exact components I hope to use. I may use data for a hornady bullet for a Speer bullet of the same weight, or perhaps it's a Speer bullet for a Sierra bullet load.

    Then, there is the powder charge to decide on for the starting load. What are the charge weights for that bullet weight in all the manuals or data you have, or enough of them. OOOOh but not Barnes, because they different. No give to pure copper, and more friction?

    If this charge is given for 145 grain bullets, then should be safe for 140s?? OR the other direction, OK for 150s??

    What about Sierra, and Speer again. Sierras, with BT and a blunt ogive. Speer with a Flat base, and a sharper ogive.

    Rem. primers in the Data, but I use CCI. Mag. primers, or Regular? Data different but component data is also different to some degree. Should you use the same OALs as in the Data, with your different rifle chamber.

    Who needs to handload? Just use FLs.

    I hope you can see what I mean. But what are the rules for you? How far do you go, in extrapolating. Do you have Do's and Don't's?

    Things you don't extrapolate on? How SAFE is extrapolating a little versus following the data to the letter?

    What are your ideas and opinions on the whole idea of extrapolating?

    Smitty of the North
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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    ......Yes.
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    Don't extrapolate on shotgun shells.
    When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away.
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    Sometimes it is easier to just use the data given to you buy the powder and bullet manufacturers. Most give data on their new powders and bullets so they can be successfully sold.

    Now that being said, use the math. When I work up a load, their is a certain curve that you can figure out by looking at the burn rate per cartridge. Normally if a bullet is 5 grains up or down it doesn't change a whole lot in some calibers.
    "Equipped with his five senses, man explores the universe around him and calls the adventure science"

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrassLakeRon View Post
    Sometimes it is easier to just use the data given to you buy the powder and bullet manufacturers.
    If only it were always that easy. Currently working up loads for 6.5x55...140-160 grain cast, at 1800-1900 fps? Virtually zero data available. With Vihtavouri powder? Absolutely zero data available. Gonna have to extrapolate, mostly from second info as starting point.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It
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    I shoot a lot of older cailbers and wildcats. For some, the only data around is in manuals older than most folks on this site. Anyone have copies of Speer or Lyman manuals #1? I do. How about Sharpe's manual and Hatcher's manual? I do. The latter pair in particular has almost no modern powders in it.

    Problem is, these older manuals are one of the few available. Cartridges of the World and Cartridge Conversions have 1 or 2 each for old standards, but good luck on wildcats.

    Bottom line, whatchagonnado for rounds without data for modern powders?

    I rely first on powder capacity of comparable rounds. I spend a lot of time in cast bullet manuals looking for minimums to be used as startups. I'm also more conservative than old Barry Goldwater when it comes to reloading. It always strikes me as funny, the guys who puff their chests and call themselves conservatives, then sit down into the loading bench and turn into Hillaries about max loads.

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    I have an almost mint Speer #1 and a really old PO Ackley hand book. Many folks don't understand that the loads in the manuals can only be assured to work properly in the rifle they were tested in. Another rifle is another different component. Any time you are handloading you must start low and work up and you can do the same with an unknown cartridge. Pick something close in case capacity and shape and bullet weight and start at starting loads and work up. You could even start with a case full of powder you know is way too slow and gradually work in faster powders until your getting pressure signs then back up a bit. I would not recommend that for a beginning reloader. I ended up with 25lbs of what appears to be 5010 and have been using it by starting with a case full in a 22H. It was way too slow for that so next a case full in a 223. Still way too slow. 308, too slow. 358N, too slow. So now I know I have something that actually is in the 5010 zone. Now a 200gr cast in the 358N and 3grs of unique over the primer and the rest of the case full of powder x. Still too slow. 5grs unique starting to burn cleaner. 6g Unique, better 7gr Unique clean burn. Now chrono and add Unique until velocity gets to 2100 or so all the while checking for pressure signs. Lots of folks think this is crazy but it's working very well for me but this too is not for beginners. Anytime you are approaching max book loads you need to be able to read the signs of where far enough is. Max book loads are too hot for some guns and you need to learn when to stop. Thinking a max load is safe in your gun just be cause it's in a loading manual can get you hurt. And, I'll admit, I have pushed things a bit far a time or two, although I'm more cautious now than I once was. Sometimes even factory loads are to hot for some guns. Quite a few people have experienced sticky bolt lift with the new short mags using factory loads. The new short mags are crowding the pressure limits in order to make a smaller round perform like a bigger one by raising pressure. In some guns it's a bit over the top. Stay safe, go slow and be cautious.

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    Reloadersnest.com
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    What, no dire warnings, no cautions, no condemnations for Extrapolating Handloading Data?

    Can I conclude then, that "extrapolating" is something that everybody does, and often MUST DO, to determine a load?

    Then, while accepted, it is not condoned, or recommended, and not even mentioned. (I,ve yet to see an article on handloading that tells me HOW to "extrapolate". Nor, do handloader folks talk about how they extrapolated, unless with the Wildcats. I have heard discussions on that, but the focus is on the difficulties of wildcats.

    Amongst this crowd, it seems that great effort is expended to FIND data, all kinds of DATA, old and new.

    Well, Mighty Fine, then. Not what I expected, but helpful and encouraging, nonetheless.

    Thanks

    Smitty of the North
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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    What's your point?
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    If only it were always that easy. Currently working up loads for 6.5x55...140-160 grain cast, at 1800-1900 fps? Virtually zero data available. With Vihtavouri powder? Absolutely zero data available. Gonna have to extrapolate, mostly from second info as starting point.
    I do not doubt you.

    Us,Ole Hillbillys would never use such a Highbrow powder like Vihtavouri. Someone guv me a manual for it but I sheetcanned it. It felt good too.

    IF, you were willing to use another powder, there are lots of types that would work well for the application, you mention. The Lyman manuals are a good source, and at least some of the Speer manuals show reduced loads using SR 4759, which is a bulky powder made just for such a purpose. I'm sure you're better than me at finding things on the Internet.

    You probably knew that stuff, already, though.

    I would try Unique, Red Dot, H or IMR 4227, 2400, SR 4759, or Trail Boss, 3031, if you can find or extrapolate a promising charge.

    I would NOT use W748, even though, you might find data for it with cast bullets in this cartridge. If you do, make sure you use Mag. Primers, and if you shoot them in the Wintertime, do that in TEXUZ, not in the Greatland.

    Real Handloaders use Cast Bullets.

    Smitty of the North
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    What's your point?
    It's OK to "extrapolate".

    SOTN
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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    It's OK to "extrapolate".

    SOTN
    Well why didn't ya just come out and say that? I agree. Provided logic and careful consideration is judiciously applied.

    Re: "...it seems that great effort is expended to FIND data, all kinds of DATA, old and new". Expending effort to find data is critical to extrapolation. Gotta have data to extrapolate from. Otherwise it ain't extrapolation, it's a WAG. I would opine that it's NOT ok to WAG.

    I think I'm going with 4895. Maybe N133.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    Well why didn't ya just come out and say that? I agree. Provided logic and careful consideration is judiciously applied.

    I think I'm going with 4895. Maybe N133.
    I only form such opinions after careful consideration of the views advanced by the Big Boys here on the forum.

    Smitty of the North
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    I ended up with 24lbs of H116, yep that's not a typo H116. The only data I had was for a couple of loads for 44mag and a couple for 30 Carbine. Not what I wanted to use it in and I'm not throwing out 24 lbs of powder. I again started with the 22H and 5grs as this stuff works in a 30 carbine which probably puts it in the H110/4198 range. 5grs was underwhelming and I worked up to about 12 grs which is working pretty good. About 16grs in a 223 and a 30/30 with cast boolits works pretty good. Then I found it listed on an obscure burn chart and found that I had hit it pretty close. I now believe it to be Win 680. Yeah I extrapolate with all kinds of loads but I do not recommend this for beginners. I have been known to pull the trigger with a string when I start my SWAG. I bought a pound of powder at a gunshow in a can marked with a magic marker as H110. It isn't even close in looks. It is the finest ball powder I have ever seen. 3grs of whatever this stuff is makes a good 22lr replacement in the hornet and 5grs is far enough. If someone else had bought that and loaded a 44mag with about 20 grs they could easily been missing body parts. I'm really glad I bought it instead of some newbe. There are lots of new powders coming out and no data for my old favorites, 22H/22KH, 25/20, 32/20, 32S&W Long, 256Win, 7.62x25, 35Rem. I have even done it with shotgun with good success. Usually I get flamed for mentioning this stuff but I have all my body parts after 40+years of messing with this kind of thing.

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    Member Rob B's Avatar
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    Oh no. Don't ever extrapolate. Don't you know BB guns can put your eye out and you could go blind. OK. there's my warning. But yeah sure everyone has to wear one way or another from the book they are loading from. If there isn't a book on that gun/load then I'd say be very careful and start out really slow with your loads. Could be a fun and dangerous ride. Reminds me of my Dad that once played around when he was on Chemo and full on cancer. hard to stop him when he wanted to do stuff, but he reloaded some .270 rounds with my 30-40 Kraig powder. Ended up with a nice scope ringed eye and a jammed up bolt. Good thing is Remington fixed it all back up and now I inherited the rifle and have been shooting moose you and deer successfully for years. (with the right loads of course).
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbuck351 View Post
    I ended up with 24lbs of H116, yep that's not a typo H116. The only data I had was for a couple of loads for 44mag and a couple for 30 Carbine. Not what I wanted to use it in and I'm not throwing out 24 lbs of powder. I again started with the 22H and 5grs as this stuff works in a 30 carbine which probably puts it in the H110/4198 range. 5grs was underwhelming and I worked up to about 12 grs which is working pretty good. About 16grs in a 223 and a 30/30 with cast boolits works pretty good. Then I found it listed on an obscure burn chart and found that I had hit it pretty close. I now believe it to be Win 680. Yeah I extrapolate with all kinds of loads but I do not recommend this for beginners. I have been known to pull the trigger with a string when I start my SWAG. I bought a pound of powder at a gunshow in a can marked with a magic marker as H110. It isn't even close in looks. It is the finest ball powder I have ever seen. 3grs of whatever this stuff is makes a good 22lr replacement in the hornet and 5grs is far enough. If someone else had bought that and loaded a 44mag with about 20 grs they could easily been missing body parts. I'm really glad I bought it instead of some newbe. There are lots of new powders coming out and no data for my old favorites, 22H/22KH, 25/20, 32/20, 32S&W Long, 256Win, 7.62x25, 35Rem. I have even done it with shotgun with good success. Usually I get flamed for mentioning this stuff but I have all my body parts after 40+years of messing with this kind of thing.
    You're braver, or smarter than I am. Probably both.

    Tonight, I decided I wanted to use 2400 powder in a 145 gr. Cast Bullet load for my 7mm-08. I know that 2400 is one of the powders suitable, but how much???

    I did an INTERNET search for 7mm-08 and 2400, and came up with some data. Now, I have at least a starting point.

    Still, there is some risk in using someone's personal data. I hope to confirm it with that, from other sources.

    Using these pistol powders, there is a max, and a double charge of it can ruin things in a hurry.

    I always check the powder level of each round.

    SOTN
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    I don't have any data for the 7/08 using 2400 but I found a load for the 7x57 with 2400 and a 135gr boolit with a starting load of 17grs and a max of 22grs. I would think 15grs would be a more than safe place to start in the 7/08 and work up. 2400 can be down loaded quite a bit without getting SEE but to get consistent ignition and burn I would use a Dacron filler. I would think you could go up to 20grs or so but I wouldn't start much higher than 15 without some known data. This is one of those places where if you want to shoot cast in the 7/08 you are probably stuck with extrapolating or ask on cast boolits. There is bound to be someone shooting close to what you want.

  19. #19

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    My very first experience with reloading happened in the spring of 1977. I had a winchester 94 30-30 that was real nice. Yet words of wisdom from someone that had been reloading and hunting deer In Missouri forever said that a 30-30 was a turd. I believed him and went out and bought a like new Remington 700 ADL with a very beautiful piece of wood. The old timer was proud of me. We went to the brush dump and zeroed in the rifle with a like new Weaver k8. The k8 had the adjustments on the rings and was a heck of a scope. I shot up 20 rounds and my buddy offered to reload them for me. He said IMR4895 will be perfect and it does work but now I know it's a tad to fast. His reloading manual said maximum load is 54.9 grains. He loaded them at 59.4 and in basically turned my 270 into a magnum version. It only took one round to figure out that something was wrong. I got crap back in my face and smoke rolled out from all around the bolt. The bolt handle would not open! Keith Rose was the local smith and a good one in those days. He said the lugs held like they were supposed to but there was now set back in the lug recesses and not to use it anymore. I had already unloaded the 30-30 for an 1894 Marlin in 44 mag. I had no money to buy a new rifle for the fall hunt so I used that 1894 44 magnum and killed the biggest buck in camp stone cold dead at 50 yards. Do you think the 30-30 would have been ok? Me too!

    What I learned was that not all advice is worth taking into consideration. It was the one and only time that I ever shot anyone reloads that were not my own.

    I sent Smitty a bunch of loaded 44 magnums a few years ago. So what's he do? He tore them all apart and reloaded them again himself. At first I thought ...why you contrary old fart, doubting my reloads. Then I had to chuckle because I would have done exactly the same thing. Rule number one DO NOT shoot someone's else's reloads. If they are tailored for his gun then most likely they are wrong for yours. Hardly anyone reloads to factory spec and if they do they are peeing into the wind. The whole point in reloading is tailoring loads to your rifle. Don't be a test pilot for someone else's learning curve!
    Experience is the best teacher and there is a huge learning curve to eclipse before you dare start blending powders like rubuck. He has paid his dues and knows what to watch for but then it weren't his first batch of cookies either!

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    Quote Originally Posted by elmerkeithclone View Post
    Rule number one DO NOT shoot someone's else's reloads.
    Amen. Amen. Amen. And AMEN!!!!

    Applies for using someone else's recipe in your own gun without starting well below and working up to it, too. Just plain STUPID to use the "wisdom" of the internet to determine safe loads in your own gun. Even max loads from printed manuals just might be too hot in your particular gun. Start at the lower end of the scale and work up. And tell the liberal Hillary reloaders to go pound sand.

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