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Thread: RCBS X Die

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    Default RCBS X Die

    Another question l been mean in to ask......

    Has anyone reading this have experience, knowledge, or have an opinion about them?

    It peers to be just a special sizing die. It doesn't cost much more than reg. dies.

    Thanks
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    I've been a little bit skeptical, but friends report happiness. Before going into my skepticism, here's what RCBS has to say about it:

    The X-Sizer die is a uniquely designed full length resizing die for
    bottleneck rifle cases. This die not only full length resizes the
    case, it also limits the growth of the case. This eliminates the
    need for repeated trimming after an initial trim is done to stan-
    dardize the case. This die is not intended to shorten the length of
    the case, rather, as the case grows, the mandrel will reduce the
    normal rate of growth. This is the result of the case mouth coming
    in contact with the mandrel stop during resizing. Cases repeatedly
    sized in the X-Sizer die will grow a few thousandths of an inch ini-
    tially, and will then stabilize below the maximum case length.
    Using the X-Sizer die eliminates the need to trim after each shot.
    X-Sizer dies can be used for full-length resizing with or without
    the X feature. Partial neck sizing can be done but only
    without
    the X feature.

    Note:
    Adjusting the mandrel too far
    down will cause the case to buckle.
    If the mandrel is not adjusted far
    enough, it will allow the cases to
    continue growing. Die adjustment
    explained in step 2 is very impor-
    tant to achieve consistent results.
    Cases sized in the X-Sizer die
    will
    have growth of a few thousandths
    of an inch during the first few siz-
    ings
    until each case seats against
    the mandrel stop.
    Since I already have the dies I want along with a good case trimmer, that seems like a lot of folderoll for dubious gains. Might buy the X dies for a new caliber, just to test them out (and since you can choose not to use the X features). But I sure ain't spending money on one to replace what I already have. Somehow it just seem like buying trouble where it's not needed, even if the extra cost above standard dies isn't all that much.

    But I'm slow to jump on most bandwagons. Someone told me there's this music called rap or hiphop or some such. News to me, and RCBS might as well have named these Rap Dies or Hiphop Dies, as far as I'm concerned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
    I've been a little bit skeptical, but friends report happiness. Before going into my skepticism, here's what RCBS has to say about it:



    Since I already have the dies I want along with a good case trimmer, that seems like a lot of folderoll for dubious gains. Might buy the X dies for a new caliber, just to test them out (and since you can choose not to use the X features). But I sure ain't spending money on one to replace what I already have. Somehow it just seem like buying trouble where it's not needed, even if the extra cost above standard dies isn't all that much.

    But I'm slow to jump on most bandwagons. Someone told me there's this music called rap or hiphop or some such. News to me, and RCBS might as well have named these Rap Dies or Hiphop Dies, as far as I'm concerned.
    Kinder sounds to me like this "mandrel" has a shoulder or something, that blocks the neck from getting longer. ???? Something must stop the brass flow, or direct it somewhere else.

    I'm with you on, if it's for a new cartridge for you. Also if one likes to tinker. I'm guessing, considering how things often go, there may be mixed results.

    Still, if they DO work, they offer some advantage. None of the dies I have now are broke and I know what to expect from them. I'm not thinking of getting the "X", but only the mystery of it all.

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    Here is a movie that splains it. I am with BB here but I ain't used it nether so who knows.

    By the way this press is zactley like mine that caused me to sell my Dillon, Hornady L-n-L AP with case feeder.
    Also run the "powder cop" die on mine.
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    Huh. Sounds like a fix to one of them problems I ain't never never seen. Hell, I still ain't convinced I's ever gonna have to buy one of them brass trimmer thingies neither!

    An' BB, I don't like none of that **** hippity hop music neither! But I tell ya, I jus' saw a commercial what said I should ask my doctor about Clariton...so I's gonna do that first thing Monday!
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    Yep they're making all kind of tools now days that fix problems that don't exist. The only cases I have had to trim were cases I made from something else (358N from 300Win and others that were too long to start with. And X dies? Never heard of such a thing. I guess it's a wonder my bullets will even hit the back stop let alone the target.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rbuck351 View Post
    ...only cases I have had to trim were cases I made from something else....
    Just wait. As cases get older with lots of firings, they'll need trimming. If you're crimping, they all have to be zackly the same length and some cases within a lot always seem to stretch more than others.

    I grew up in an era when money was really scarce, even if components were comparatively cheap. You'd make cases last as long as possible, and have to work pretty hard at it in the end.

    Today things seem kinda backwards to that. Seems to be lots more money around, and guys go through cases like water even if they're more expensive and sometimes hard to get.

    Even today, I can't break the long caselife habit. Part of why I despise semi-autos. I just hate losing the brass. I don't figure I've done my job if I get less than a dozen or so loadings out of bottleneck brass and 20 or so out of straightwalls, especially handgun brass. That makes "expensive" brass real cheap. And "shortages" brought on by speculators and scalpers something to laugh about rather than whine.

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    Smitty-

    Looks pretty much like the collet sizing die that Lee has been selling for a decade or more for much cheaper.

    I bought one in .220 Swift to see if it would work for the .220 Rocket, but then I found some Rocket dies so I haven't tried them yet.



    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    Another question l been mean in to ask......

    Has anyone reading this have experience, knowledge, or have an opinion about them?

    It peers to be just a special sizing die. It doesn't cost much more than reg. dies.

    Thanks
    Smitty of the North
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    I have a few. I like them. Trim the brass once and you are good to go for the life of the case. I have gotten good accuracy with them.


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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    Smitty-

    Looks pretty much like the collet sizing die that Lee has been selling for a decade or more for much cheaper.

    I bought one in .220 Swift to see if it would work for the .220 Rocket, but then I found some Rocket dies so I haven't tried them yet.
    Nope, Lee collet dies have a collet as pictured below that compresses around a case from all sides. The RCBS X-die just has a shoulder on the decaping stem that restricts the case mouth from going any further up the die.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Lee collet die.jpg 
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ID:	87636
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    Maybe when I retire and can shoot a lot more than I do now I'll have to look into something different than I do now. I have been a brass scrounger for about 50 years and have a LOT of brass for each of the quite a few guns I have. I partial FL size on bottle neck cases which seems to help. Most of my rifle shooting now days is with older low pressure rounds (25/20, 32/20, 30/30, 45/70, 22KH) that don't seem to stretch much especially using cast boolits. I don't crimp much of anything. I have fully prepped batches of cases which included trimming to length to see if accuracy improved but didn't notice much if any difference.

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    IO:

    Whatchew said was said GOOD.

    But I hope to convince you that Case Trimming be both a good thing and a needed thing.

    BB sayeth that, "some cases within a lot always seem to stretch more than others," and I've found that to be TRUE. (Imagine BB tellin the Truth, but he sure can do it, can't he?)

    Also, as he said, if you're gonna crimp, it's desirable to have them all the same length, so the crimp is the same amount. I crimp loads for Lever Action cartridges. A uniform crimp must be important to accurate shooting of sayyyy, a Fordy Five Volver, so can have uniform back pressure, for accurate ignition.

    But, I gotta say, (anybody correct me if I'm rong), I don't think straight volver catridges stretch enuff to make much diff. Course, I'm not exactly a "marksman" with my Big 44, anyway.

    It is the bottle-neck rifle cases that I've had to trim, because eventually, or after even just a firing or two they will become longer than spec. I've never had a loaded round that was long enough to crimp the bullet into the neck of the chamber, but tis said that could happen, and I surmise, it could go unnoticed, until it became MORE noticeable.

    I might add, what little I know about forming cases of one cartridge to another one, that the only ones I've done have ended up Shorter than the trim length of the new cartridge. 7mm Rem. Mag. to 7mm Weatherby Mag... 30-06 to 280 Rem. AND, now with 308 to 7mm-08, seems to come out shorter too. I need to verify, to be absolutely shewure on that one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    Nope, Lee collet dies have a collet as pictured below that compresses around a case from all sides. The RCBS X-die just has a shoulder on the decaping stem that restricts the case mouth from going any further up the die.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Lee collet die.jpg 
Views:	12 
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ID:	87636
    Thanks AD:

    I thought it was like that. Thanks for mentioning.

    TV: Thanks for your thoughts too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    IO:

    Whatchew said was said GOOD.

    But I hope to convince you that Case Trimming be both a good thing and a needed thing.

    BB sayeth that, "some cases within a lot always seem to stretch more than others," and I've found that to be TRUE. (Imagine BB tellin the Truth, but he sure can do it, can't he?)... Smitty of the North
    I reckon what'll convince me is if'n I start see'n my brass a'stretch'n. If that ever comes to pass, I might give proper consideration ta buy'n one o' them trimmer thingies.

    Them necks on my 338-06 brass shrunk like a winkle in January crick water what when I stretched 'em up from -06 nigh on twenety year ago, an' I don' figgur them's could ever grow enough to get near too long...an' sufer they ain't growd a'tall. None t'others have grow'd none neither, so I don' figgur on need'n one o' them thingies none t'soon.

    I be sure t' call on ya if I tho if'n I feel a powerful need fer convinc'n.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    I reckon what'll convince me is if'n I start see'n my brass a'stretch'n. If that ever comes to pass, I might give proper consideration ta buy'n one o' them trimmer thingies.

    Them necks on my 338-06 brass shrunk like a winkle in January crick water what when I stretched 'em up from -06 nigh on twenety year ago, an' I don' figgur them's could ever grow enough to get near too long...an' sufer they ain't growd a'tall. None t'others have grow'd none neither, so I don' figgur on need'n one o' them thingies none t'soon.

    I be sure t' call on ya if I tho if'n I feel a powerful need fer convinc'n.
    What is the length of those reformed cases. If the necks ended up shorter, I can understand that, having had the same experience with some reformed brass I made. If it's a great deal shorter, they may never grow long enough to need trimming.

    AHHH, but what about you're 6.5x55? Get out your calipers and measure them. You are facing DOOM.

    I've had a Forster Case Trimmer since right after I started handloading, and with the Lyman 3 tong ten tools. It probably cost me more than the other tools combined. I used one of those gages where you stick the case into, and see if it's too long.

    I've always considered case trimming to be important. When I get you convinced, I will recommend the Lee case trimming doo dads.

    ???? Is it too cold up thar in Fogbanks for brass to flow, and grow longer??? I got 2 degrees down hyar in the nanner belt.

    SOTN
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbuck351 View Post
    Maybe when I retire and can shoot a lot more than I do now I'll have to look into something different than I do now. I have been a brass scrounger for about 50 years and have a LOT of brass for each of the quite a few guns I have. I partial FL size on bottle neck cases which seems to help. Most of my rifle shooting now days is with older low pressure rounds (25/20, 32/20, 30/30, 45/70, 22KH) that don't seem to stretch much especially using cast boolits. I don't crimp much of anything. I have fully prepped batches of cases which included trimming to length to see if accuracy improved but didn't notice much if any difference.
    I get stretching even in my 30-30 brass. Rem, or Winchester.

    My issue for case trimming is Safety and Uniform Crimp if it is a crimp type load.

    I don't think I would notice a difference in accuracy trimmed or not trimmed.

    As long as the neck isn't TOO long, it's OK, but I encounter lots of them that are. There may be some leeway in rifle chambering.

    SOTN
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    Default where does it go?

    Thanks- I found more info on the X-dies that explains how they work in theory anyway.

    So where does the extra brass "flow" to - back into the shoulder?

    Another thought - drawing the expander mandrel back through the neck can certainly stretch and lengthen the neck if there is sufficient friction. Using a good lube on the expander - and/or a carbide button- should help maintain the correct length. The Lee collet dies also look like a reasonable idea although an overly thick neck could expand and lengthen the neck.

    I use the Lee water soluble lube on my neck and then clean the brass afterwards in an ultrasonic cleaner. A little extra work, but I like my cases clean anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    Nope, Lee collet dies have a collet as pictured below that compresses around a case from all sides. The RCBS X-die just has a shoulder on the decaping stem that restricts the case mouth from going any further up the die.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Lee collet die.jpg 
Views:	12 
Size:	45.4 KB 
ID:	87636
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
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    Well TV, I assume here, no real facts to back it up but . . . should make for some good talking.


    I think that when you size a case on the up stroke a wrinkle of material gets shoved down the neck like a wave and collects inside where the shoulder starts. You can see the wave/wrinkle if you don't size the entire neck when setting up to do neck only seizing. Then the expander ball sort of irons this out back into the neck just above the shoulder. Material is extruding into the lower neck moving the the neck upward causing more length sort of like a jack. Lower neck gets thicker, the mouth end gets thinner and case longer.

    If you are full length seizing the bottom of the case is doing something similar, the wall material gets moved from the waste area up and down under pressure of firing. Then in sizing the wrinkle/wave gets shoved down leavening the thinnest spot 2/3 to 3/4 of the way down from the neck . . . in other words I think sizing is part of why the thin place is not half way between the base and shoulder like would seem to make sense. Like inflating a balloon in a tube you'd expect it to thin most in the middle as the ends are trying to move away from each other so you'd think the thin place should be in the middle . . . I think it is but then gets shoved downeard as the case enters the sizeing die making that wrinkle/wave of material getting moved around.

    So if I'm right in that stuff (which is anybody's guess) then the X-die stopping the top going up would "upset" (a forgoing term meaning thicken) material at the case mouth area . . . forcing it back down and keeping the upper neck's wall thickness more on par with the lower neck.

    In other words it goes in the top 50 thousands or so of the neck and on the next cycle gets moved downward in that wrinkle made as the case enters the die . . . then the next batch gets upset into that area when the case bottoms out on the X-die's shouldered stem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    Thanks- I found more info on the X-dies that explains how they work in theory anyway.

    So where does the extra brass "flow" to - back into the shoulder?

    Another thought - drawing the expander mandrel back through the neck can certainly stretch and lengthen the neck if there is sufficient friction. Using a good lube on the expander - and/or a carbide button- should help maintain the correct length. The Lee collet dies also look like a reasonable idea although an overly thick neck could expand and lengthen the neck.

    I use the Lee water soluble lube on my neck and then clean the brass afterwards in an ultrasonic cleaner. A little extra work, but I like my cases clean anyway.
    Where does it go??? I heard that it's something of a mystery, as to HOW theese X die actually works.

    Since the brass hasta go "somewhere", perhaps it results in a Bigger Doughnut, than would be otherwise.

    I wonder if the BR crowd that is concerned with the Dreaded Doughnut, use the x die.

    One thing that makes me dubious of the X Die is the experience I had with the Lee Collet die that you mentioed.

    When I first got it for my 7x57, I was using it for Cast Bullets, the diameter of which was .285, or 286, and it worked fine an dandy. I didn't hafta lube before sizing, and then remove the lube. I just ran the brass through the Collet Die.

    BUTTTT, When I got around to using it to load Jacketed Bullets, the neck wasn't tight enough to hold the bullet tight.

    Lee blamed my brass, saying it must be too old. (Something I didn't/don't buy.)

    They did offer one solution, they will take the Mandrels back and make the .001 smaller in diameter. They said they wouldn't go less. ( You can understand why.)

    Anyways, I sent it in and had them do it. IIRC I paid for the modification. Since that time, I haven't used it.

    I think I mighta tested to see if it sized the necks to where it would hold a jacketed bullet of .284, but can't remember.

    Hmmm, what did I say LAST TIME, I mentioned this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    .................................................. ...............

    Lee blamed my brass, saying it must be too old. (Something I didn't/don't buy.)

    They did offer one solution, they will take the Mandrels back and make the .001 smaller in diameter. They said they wouldn't go less. ( You can understand why.)

    Anyways, I sent it in and had them do it. IIRC I paid for the modification. Since that time, I haven't used it.



    Smitty of the North
    I'm getting a bit off topic here.................................

    When they said "too old" maybe the brass just needed annealed ?

    Also I ordered extra mandrels .001 and .002 undersize from the standard size they offer (in about 4 calibers)..... Seems odd they wouldn't go smaller than .001 on your order??????????

    The standard mandrel didn't have enough grip to suit me..........The diameter of different brands of bullets do vary a bit............

    Sorry for the hijack............................................ ...........................I'll return to my cave....................
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