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Thread: Saving our wild salmon

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    Default Saving our wild salmon

    Looks like Lisa is raising cane with the FDA over farmed salmon where she should be welcoming what could be a real blessing to our wild salmon stocks: http://www.adn.com/article/20151123/...odified-salmon

    Capturing a significant share of the market should take some of the pressure off our wild stocks- and less commercial pressure is always good for the wild fisheries - always.

    Lets all pray the new salmon get a roaring start and capture a large share of the salmon market. Our wild salmon can then thrive and prosper as they did in the past.

    But it is all about money - isn't it?
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
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    Well, well, well...... Some things never change.

    Farmed salmon have been around for decades. Their market share won't move up or down based on this. It's just a farmed salmon that grows faster. But it's still a farmed salmon. Lots of folks won't touch them. This new fish won't make them change their tastes one iota.

    Also, the wild salmon stocks in Alaska are already thriving and prospering. And they have been for the past 10,000 years. In case you haven't noticed......

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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    Looks like Lisa is raising cane with the FDA over farmed salmon where she should be welcoming what could be a real blessing to our wild salmon stocks: http://www.adn.com/article/20151123/...odified-salmon

    Capturing a significant share of the market should take some of the pressure off our wild stocks- and less commercial pressure is always good for the wild fisheries - always.

    Lets all pray the new salmon get a roaring start and capture a large share of the salmon market. Our wild salmon can then thrive and prosper as they did in the past.

    But it is all about money - isn't it?
    Farmed salmon harm the environment and the wild fish themselves far more than well regulated commercial fisheries. It takes an obscene amount of feed to raise farmed fish, and those fish that are caught to be ground into fish meal for the salmon feed are thus not available for the wild stocks.

    No credible marine biologist would support your assertion that fish farming is beneficial to wild stocks of fish.

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    This thread should be titled "TVF trolls with farmed salmon".
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian M View Post
    Farmed salmon harm the environment and the wild fish themselves far more than well regulated commercial fisheries. It takes an obscene amount of feed to raise farmed fish, and those fish that are caught to be ground into fish meal for the salmon feed are thus not available for the wild stocks.

    No credible marine biologist would support your assertion that fish farming is beneficial to wild stocks of fish.
    +1. I believe this is one aspect most people never think about and are blissfully ignorant of; how incredibly inefficient, wasteful, and resource intensive it is to farm salmon.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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    The only possible good in this decision is that many customers, who are averse to eating GMO salmon, may be drawn to the real thing, AK salmon.
    I wonder how the meat on those fish look? Many years ago we trolled for land locked kings north of Pierre, SD. We caught a couple and the meat was very pale.
    My child was inmate of the month at Mat-Su pre-trial Correctional facility.

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    At an absolute minimum the darned things should be labeled as Farmed, too - that is not even part the plan so far.
    We need to insist upon same.

    How can people chose with their wallets what to value as natural, worth protecting, proven healthy, etc. when faced with commercial interests looking at the bottom line and altering eons of a good thing as if they were supreme beings - playing with fire ......

    Farmed fish should be confined to on land, closed water systems only - so that there is less chance of unanticipated things going very, very wrong. The answers to long term effects may come shockingly years from now. This could result in accelerating the end of the natural salmon stocks we are blessed with.

    You can take these techniques to that watery planet you have in your dreams.
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    Default don't eat chicken...

    I would bet the Passenger Pigeon market hunters said something very similar about first domestic chicken farmers.

    It is too late to save the poor pigeons; maybe we can still save the salmon.


    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    I believe this is one aspect most people never think about and are blissfully ignorant of; how incredibly inefficient, wasteful, and resource intensive it is to farm salmon.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    tvf, you do realize the analogy you just attempted to make is utterly nonsensical, don't you?
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
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  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mkay View Post
    The only possible good in this decision is that many customers, who are averse to eating GMO salmon, may be drawn to the real thing, AK salmon.
    I wonder how the meat on those fish look? Many years ago we trolled for land locked kings north of Pierre, SD. We caught a couple and the meat was very pale.
    Quote Originally Posted by 68 Bronco View Post
    At an absolute minimum the darned things should be labeled as Farmed, too - that is not even part the plan so far.
    We need to insist upon same.

    How can people chose with their wallets what to value as natural, worth protecting, proven healthy, etc. when faced with commercial interests looking at the bottom line and altering eons of a good thing as if they were supreme beings - playing with fire ......

    Farmed fish should be confined to on land, closed water systems only - so that there is less chance of unanticipated things going very, very wrong. The answers to long term effects may come shockingly years from now. This could result in accelerating the end of the natural salmon stocks we are blessed with.

    You can take these techniques to that watery planet you have in your dreams.
    Don't worry TV - your marbles are out there somewhere. You'll find them eventually.

    I think the press of this issue provides a real opportunity for Alaska. The current up-swell against GMO food is pretty significant (albeit somewhat silly IMO, but whatever...). I'd bet there are a lot of hardcore non gmo soldiers that are blissfully unaware that the fish they pick up at the local supermarket is farm raised. That just changed. No better time for a "Fresh, Wild, Sustainable, Alaskan" marketing campaign. Maybe we could borrow Coke's old theme song - "can't beat the real thing"...

    Bronco, I believe the official line is that these fish will be raised only in landlocked pens.... In Panama or someplace which I'm sure has wired tight security to prevent contamination of natural stocks...

    I've got a lot of questions about this but am not necessarily freaking out about it like some people are.... IF they turn out to be edible and healthy, I highly doubt they will come close to having the texture and health benefits of wild fish. Not to mention the huge problem fish farms are having with parasites.

    But I think the fact that people will undoubtedly freak out about it is a pretty big opportunity for Alaska.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    I would bet the Passenger Pigeon market hunters said something very similar about first domestic chicken farmers.

    It is too late to save the poor pigeons; maybe we can still save the salmon.
    Probably not. Hunting Passenger Pigeons was outlawed more than a generation before modern chicken farming became popular.

    Interestingly, Passenger Pigeon meat was dirt cheap and considered slaves' food, while in that era chickens were mostly raised on family farms and valued for their eggs (as they have been since long before Christ) and their meat was expensive and saved for special occasions.

    So yes, utterly nonsensical is a very good way to put it.

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    Default and salmon

    People were raising chickens and turkeys very early on in our history. The huge large scale operations did come later.

    Interesting that the other food stuffed down the slaves and indentured servants - who were often treated worse than the slaves - was of all things salmon. Like the Passenger Pigeon, the Atlantic salmon got wiped out by commercial over-harvest by greedy operators trying to make a fast buck. Some things never change.


    Quote Originally Posted by smithtb View Post
    Probably not. Hunting Passenger Pigeons was outlawed more than a generation before modern chicken farming became popular.

    Interestingly, Passenger Pigeon meat was dirt cheap and considered slaves' food, while in that era chickens were mostly raised on family farms and valued for their eggs (as they have been since long before Christ) and their meat was expensive and saved for special occasions.

    So yes, utterly nonsensical is a very good way to put it.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

  13. #13

    Default Saving our wild salmon

    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    People were raising chickens and turkeys very early on in our history. The huge large scale operations did come later.

    Interesting that the other food stuffed down the slaves and indentured servants - who were often treated worse than the slaves - was of all things salmon. Like the Passenger Pigeon, the Atlantic salmon got wiped out by commercial over-harvest by greedy operators trying to make a fast buck. Some things never change.
    Actually, habitat destruction and possibly disease played a role, but you should probably stick to your narrative. Sounds a lot better to call a large portion of our state's population greedy operators based on what happened to a pigeon over a century ago. Totally sensible. Shame on me. I'm gonna go out to my chicken coup and cry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smithtb View Post
    I think the press of this issue provides a real opportunity for Alaska. ...............

    Bronco, I believe the official line is that these fish will be raised only in landlocked pens.... In Panama or someplace which I'm sure has wired tight security to prevent contamination of natural stocks...
    Agreed, an opportunity for promotion of the real thing.

    As to never escaping into the wild, surely you are being facetious. After all, we have never had any problems with invasive flora and fauna before, have we??

    Mankind is far too fallible for this to never happen, out of greed, ignorance or even malice.
    "Punish the monkey - let the organ grinder go" - Mark Knopfler

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    Default large portion?

    "A large portion of our states population"?

    And this "large portion" of our states population supports an industry that contributes around 1% of the expenses of running the state and providing essential services to all the population of the states. That IS a crying shame no matter where you do it.



    Quote Originally Posted by smithtb View Post
    Actually, habitat destruction and possibly disease played a role, but you should probably stick to your narrative. Sounds a lot better to call a large portion of our state's population greedy operators based on what happened to a pigeon over a century ago. Totally sensible. Shame on me. I'm gonna go out to my chicken coup and cry.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    Quote Originally Posted by 68 Bronco View Post
    Agreed, an opportunity for promotion of the real thing.

    As to never escaping into the wild, surely you are being facetious. After all, we have never had any problems with invasive flora and fauna before, have we??

    Mankind is far too fallible for this to never happen, out of greed, ignorance or even malice.
    Yes, I was joking. It's a huge concern IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    "A large portion of our states population"?

    And this "large portion" of our states population supports an industry that contributes around 1% of the expenses of running the state and providing essential services to all the population of the states. That IS a crying shame no matter where you do it.
    Right, because the amount of taxes paid to government is the defining factor for any industry, not the solid income and economic stimulus it provides thousands of Alaskans and communities. Oh, look - I think I see a marble!

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    Default paid for by...

    I don't think sterile fish are likely to interbreed with the wild stocks or cause any serious damage to the environment. Of course all the hatchery farmed fish dumped in to compete with the wild stocks - that is another story.

    Wonder just who far all the "solid income and economic stimulus" would go for the thousands (a major segment of the state's population?) IF someone else wasn't paying the majority - 90+%- of the bills for schools, public services, transportation, harbor improvements, communications, etc etc. I guess we'll getting ready to find out, cause the goose has just about stopped laying all those golden eggs.

    Perhaps we can starting taxing the commercial fisheries, mining, tourism, and lumber industries to pick up the slack big oil has left behind? (Can the wild salmon compete with farmed fish if the industry was taxed at a reasonable rate?)

    Stay tuned - things are just starting to get interesting in Alaska!



    Quote Originally Posted by smithtb View Post
    Yes, I was joking. It's a huge concern IMO.

    Right, because the amount of taxes paid to government is the defining factor for any industry, not the solid income and economic stimulus it provides thousands of Alaskans and communities. Oh, look - I think I see a marble!
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    ...........
    Stay tuned - things are just starting to get interesting in Alaska!.............
    With all due respect TV, I've been 'tuned' in to AK issues for 54 yrs. (ever since I arrived here). 'Interesting things' are always going on here.
    This single issue meme of yours, however pertinent or not, seldom varies and interest, therefore, wanes quickly.

    Perhaps you could consider taking it up with lawmakers or run for some official office - something positive ..... since it is constantly in the forefront for you.
    Maybe you are already on a Board or in some position related to your cause - I dunno.
    "Punish the monkey - let the organ grinder go" - Mark Knopfler

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    Default interesting times...

    You beat me out by some 20 years - but then again I've have the experience of seeing how things work in the rest of the world, and can relate them to Alaska.

    While we've had oil prices crashes, the situation with the state's finances now are a bit unique. Short of a war in the Mideast, we are going to be in a world of hurt for a while with seriously declining oil production. Someone is going to have to pick up the slack somehow, or the states rural population that survives off state and federal welfare is going to see some mighty tough times. Likewise, those that live off the permanent fund are going to be screwed and may leave, but that could be a good thing for the rest of us.

    I'm getting old now, but I feel I've made Alaska a better place because of what I've contributed. The results of one thing I did made Alaskan headlines and a big spot on the national news. I've also been quoted on the front page of the Wall Street Journal, so I guess I haven't done too bad. Still ,after I retire again, I might see what else I can get accomplished to better the state.

    Don't know where you picked up the 68Bronco from, but I had a 68 Bronco before I came to Alaska. Heck of a vehicle, but once you got it stuck it was heck to get unstuck.




    Quote Originally Posted by 68 Bronco View Post
    With all due respect TV, I've been 'tuned' in to AK issues for 54 yrs. (ever since I arrived here). 'Interesting things' are always going on here.
    This single issue meme of yours, however pertinent or not, seldom varies and interest, therefore, wanes quickly.

    Perhaps you could consider taking it up with lawmakers or run for some official office - something positive ..... since it is constantly in the forefront for you.
    Maybe you are already on a Board or in some position related to your cause - I dunno.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    You beat me out by some 20 years - but then again I've have the experience of seeing how things work in the rest of the world, and can relate them to Alaska.

    While we've had oil prices crashes, the situation with the state's finances now are a bit unique. Short of a war in the Mideast, we are going to be in a world of hurt for a while with seriously declining oil production. Someone is going to have to pick up the slack somehow, or the states rural population that survives off state and federal welfare is going to see some mighty tough times. Likewise, those that live off the permanent fund are going to be screwed and may leave, but that could be a good thing for the rest of us.

    I'm getting old now, but I feel I've made Alaska a better place because of what I've contributed. The results of one thing I did made Alaskan headlines and a big spot on the national news. I've also been quoted on the front page of the Wall Street Journal, so I guess I haven't done too bad. Still, after I retire again, I might see what else I can get accomplished to better the state.

    Don't know where you picked up the 68Bronco from, but I had a 68 Bronco before I came to Alaska. Heck of a vehicle, but once you got it stuck it was heck to get unstuck.
    I am old now by most standards (of little import), but have had my luck and fun in AK and elsewhere getting there.
    No regrets worth dwelling on. Maybe I should be, but I'm not worried about our economy here and not because of personal assets. This place is close enough to Eden.
    I felt like it was the end of the Last Frontier when the pipe started piling up, the heavy drugs and the gaunt hookers arrived en masse - and still feel that an accurate enough assessment. Having had police toss an infamous oil man out of a business I managed (my being in a unique position affording observations, this not the only place he was treated thusly and deservedly), a newspaper editor later wrote me that it was too bad I did not get him kicked clear out of the state at that time - because it would have saved us all a lot of grief. So much for progress.

    Good luck retiring.
    I tried 11 yrs. ago and apparently do not comprehend the concept. (Which, by the way, my father said was indeed a new concept to his generation.) Trying to improve things takes people with the drive to do so, old or young, and it sounds like you perhaps have, or will give it a shot in some more ways.

    (I'm on my third early Bronco. Don't get stuck much anymore - knock on wood.)

    To the topic - Sure to escape frankenfish can in no way be construed as anything less than risky for our already troubled oceans, IMO.
    Not meant as comparison to wars past - there is enough war in the mideast (and here!) beyond belief - one would think enough to inspire changes in myriad realms well beyond just picking up the slack economically. $$$ can help drive or thwart worthy changes.

    Our hearts and minds need changed more urgently than we need to challenge mother nature.
    "Punish the monkey - let the organ grinder go" - Mark Knopfler

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