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Thread: Moody's downgrades Remington . . .

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    Sponsor ADfields's Avatar
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    Default Moody's downgrades Remington . . .

    Remington (the oldest firearms manufacture in North America) is sadly looking more and more like a beached whale these days . . . I wonder can it be shoved back into deeper water before it's too late?


    http://www.guns.com/2015/11/23/moody...ource=facebook
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    Not possible if folks don't buy their stuff. But folks won't buy if it's not what they want. Catch 22.

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    I don't think it's a product line issue so much as folks don't buy because they no longer trust the quality control. Being basically forced out of New York is going to be costly. The recalls and settlements on the triggers are a huge hit to the bottom line and now someone has filed another class action about the new trigger they are using now. Just a huge amount of baggage they have now.
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    I think the majority of gun buying the past couple years has been handguns and AR's. Neither of which Remington produces.
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    Not so Paul, you forget the 1911-R1 but they are also in the CC market with the R51 and RM380.

    Though it's a bit more convoluted they are also in the AR market. I've been told the Bushmasters are largely built in the Ilion NY Remington facility and I understand that the ARs sold under the Remington name are made by DPMS for Remington . . . all three outfits are part of Freedom Group. Anyway as I understand it Remington does make ARs and they do market ARs so are in the AR market . . . though the Remington branded ARs come from DPMS. (Might make some sense to consolidate some of that there mess into a structure that makes more sense!)

    Freedom Group owns Remington, Marlin, Bushmaster, AAC, Barns, Dakota, DPMS, H&R, Para, Parker, TAPCO, and Mountain Khakis (makes clothing including the Remington stuff.) I think Remington itself is the sickest branch of the tree but we could be talking about the tree as a whole also here.
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    Don't forget, the R51 debacle. It was such a promising idea that they butchered and killed off. It had problems from the beginning at the shot show release and then things got worse. They finally scrapped it, but the damaged reputation still remains.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobius View Post
    Don't forget, the R51 debacle. It was such a promising idea that they butchered and killed off. It had problems from the beginning at the shot show release and then things got worse. They finally scrapped it, but the damaged reputation still remains.
    It's not scrapped, looks like still in production.
    http://remingtonhandguns.com/r51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    It's not scrapped, looks like still in production.
    http://remingtonhandguns.com/r51
    It's still on the page, but production stopped August 2014 stating they would resume in Oct 2014. No new R51's have been shipped since Aug 2014.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_R51

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    Not so Paul, you forget the 1911-R1 but they are also in the CC market with the R51 and RM380.
    Ha ha ha, there lies the problem, people forget they are even making most of their stuff.

    The investor in me says buy now, that name is too big to fail entirely.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobius View Post
    It's still on the page, but production stopped August 2014 stating they would resume in Oct 2014. No new R51's have been shipped since Aug 2014.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_R51
    They are moving out of Ole Brickbecause of the NY Safe Act and production has been in hilarious at the moment but that is the way production works anyway, you make a run then re-set the equipment to make a run of something else. Here in Phoenix Cabals, Sportsman's, and shooters World have them in stock so no reason to rush another run . . .

    From your WIKI link
    "Update: as of November 21, 2015, Remington is neither shipping nor announcing a production and shipping schedule for the R51. Remington replies to queries suggest the pistol is still being redesigned and developed at the Huntsville, Alabama, plant, however, the company has been publicly reticent regarding the model's future re-release date."
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    Most people I know stay away like the plague. If you sell one, the first question is," is it pre 2006?" The parent company also killed h&r/nef. They are known for killing a companies rep. Look what they did for Chrysler.

    The 783 my son bought was junk. I won't buy another one till Remington is sold to someone else.
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    Remington's balance sheet has a lot going on in it. Some it the effect of current management and some of it not.

    Relocating out of state can't be cheap, won't increase revenue and certainly isn't something the Remington folks could help.

    In the marketplace though- they're getting the pants whipped off them by their competitors who offer a better value proposition. I looked at a 700 CDL...nice gun. Not $1100 nice. In the highpower rifle market their not nearly as competitive as when you had two choices of domestic bolt gun...now there's lots in that price range, most better.

    With the AR market, selling another company's rebranded product (even if owned by your parent company) doesn't help your balance sheet all that much. They're also competing in the 1911 market- that market is very crowded with better established competitors.

    And unfortunately- their brand image is kinda tarnished now. QC issues, ill will toward Freedom Group, a confusing and kinda tired product line....etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hodgeman View Post
    Remington's balance sheet has a lot going on in it. Some it the effect of current management and some of it not.

    Relocating out of state can't be cheap, won't increase revenue and certainly isn't something the Remington folks could help.

    In the marketplace though- they're getting the pants whipped off them by their competitors who offer a better value proposition.
    Pretty much sums it up. I was at the Altoona, Iowa Bass Pro this morning. A gentleman was looking at 243s. He had a Remington 700 and a Weatherby Vanguard S2 on the glass counter and I'm not sure what the salesman was telling him but the guy asked "but is the Remington $150 dollars better?" The salesman was helping three people at once so left the guy to ponder for a bit. I stepped up next to the guy and told him that if you reversed the price tags and had the Weatherby Vanguard priced at $150 more than the Remington it would closer to the truth in value. I told him that I would hunt anything anywhere in the world with a Weatherby Vanguard S2 and feel confident and I would not make such a statement with a new Remington 700. He bought the Weatherby.

    Also the man asked me if a 243 would be suitable for deer and coyote as the salesman told him that it was a coyote only cartrdge??? Another conglomerat gun counter salesman getting his knowledge from a gun rag, I reckon. Let's leave that debate for another thread I guess.....if it's even debatable!

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    Yea it's become friends don't let friends buy Remington with their current lack of quality. I find myself pointing guys away from all the Freedom Group stuff due to crap workmanship, extremely sad to me too because America needs the jobs!
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    Well remember Remington was only $150 million to buy, and only one group came forward. That's when quality was high. Look at marlin, same thing. Think about it.....for the price/reward of a lottery ticket, you could of had a gun company.
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    Despite all the bad press about poor quality, I've bought three Model 700s within the last three years and all have worked perfectly. I just bought a 2014 manufactured Marlin 336C last month. I haven't fired it yet but it appears to cycle and eject rounds just fine. Fit and finish easily rivals my Henry H009. I think Remington is going to make some good money off the new V3 shotgun, primarily because of its design and low price point. According to Randy Wakeman in a post he made on Shotgunworld, Remington told him the V3 will begin shipping the synthetic models in January and wood stocked models in mid 2016. Time will tell...Colt is having some financial issues right now too. It's the same old story for both manufacturers...make what the customers want to buy and you will be successful.

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