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Thread: Technology VS gun laws moving into the future?

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    Default Technology VS gun laws moving into the future?

    This whole recent panic we have had in the gun industry has had some interesting side effects…

    One has been the evolution of the ar15 market. We have seen an explosion of manufactures of parts and accessories.

    Another has been the explosion of the AR15 (build it yourselfer’s) Modern CNC Technology and 3D printers have really come a long way…

    Products are being created such as the Ghost Gunner offered by Defense Industries…

    Every Bubba with a basic machine shop and 10k dollar CNC Mill, Now have the ability to turn out 80 percent lowers… G codes to do so for these basic CNC machines have become generic and are readily available for download online.

    For those folks who like to tinker, Jigs to drill these 80 percent lowers out with nothing more then a basic drill press are readily available with step by step instructions on you tube…

    I honestly think… we have reached a point with technology and information sharing that trying to ban such things is pretty much futile. (Cat is outa the bag)…

    Any efforts to do so would only serve to drive what’s shaping up to be an already thriving and (borderline black market) industry just deeper underground.

    I say (borderline) because in the day in age that the 80 percent number was decided on... Technology was nowhere near what it is today… The ease of machining an 80 percent block of aluminum into a working and reliable gun nor knowledge base to do so… was nowhere near as abundant as it is today.

    Those boxes were left unchecked in a different era…. Sort of like it being legal to manufacture you’re on gun in most states….
    That little paragraph was only left not questioned, because it was before technology was at a point that someone with a 7th grade education ...basically could just print out a working firearm.

    I didn’t attend Harvard…However I estimate that if the same number of folks that go underground (are even remotely close to those hording ammo)…. wow

    All of a sudden the words Brady check seems almost laughable. And with the campaign Hillary Clinton is gearing up to run…. She is making (Taking on the gun lobby) her campaign slogan.


    I’m going to get a case of popcorn…. 2016 is gearing up to be an entertaining year.

    What are you're thoughts? where do you envision all of this going? Maybe it all depends on Election?

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    You can legally make a rifle and keep it for yourself, but selling it or giving it away without a serial number and the proper paperwork is a federal offense.
    http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/f...-guns-34509773

    That being said. without a nationwide registry, it would be impossible to prove a firearm with a serial number was made or sold illegally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ak_cowboy View Post
    You can legally make a rifle and keep it for yourself, but selling it or giving it away without a serial number and the proper paperwork is a federal offense.
    http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/f...-guns-34509773

    That being said. without a nationwide registry, it would be impossible to prove a firearm with a serial number was made or sold illegally.
    That isn't true, you can make a gun for yourself then later decide to sell that non-numbered gun to anyone who may legally have said firearm type, there is NO Federal requirement at all for numbering or paperwork. I just did a transfer on a home-made AR without a number last week and just put "home made by Joe Blow unmarked" in box 28 and keep his DL info to CYA myself as an FFL-07. You can not make a firearm with the intent to sell it (IE manufacturer for sale) without an FFL-07 as that would make you "in the business" without a license and as an FFL-07 you would be required to number and log your product. But it's VERY common for guys to build then sell 6 months or a year later for money for another build. ATF rule of thumb they look at is a pattern of selling more than one or two a year, though there is no legal limit this is one of the patterns they look for that triggers you getting investigated.

    Much of what that case you linked is about suppressors, suppressors are NFA items and nobody can make NFA items without filing a form-1 and numbering said NFA taxable item. NFA is a whole other kettle-o- fish needing SOT licenses, tax stamps and bookoo paperwork!
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    Not any kind of expert; however, there's lots of pre-68 guns out there that were made with no serial numbers on them. Sears, Wards, etc. sold guns made by others with the seller's name on them. A serial number would have added a few cents to the cost. Our family had a few of these guns and it is my understanding they can be owned and sold (transferred). Not an exact example of AlaskanTide's post, but close.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ak_cowboy View Post
    You can legally make a rifle and keep it for yourself, but selling it or giving it away without a serial number and the proper paperwork is a federal offense.
    http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/f...-guns-34509773

    That being said. without a nationwide registry, it would be impossible to prove a firearm with a serial number was made or sold illegally.
    You are proving my point Cowboy….. A law that cannot be enforced has no teeth.

    It seems to me that in America most of our laws concerning the Manufacturing of firearms are geared towards regulating the big manufactures.
    I personally believe this is due to the fact that in the past, this is really the only people that have had the ability to produce reliable firearms in any real quantity.

    We have however reached a point with modern technology so that, is no longer the case.

    At this point in Time I can go online and buy as many 80 percent lower receivers, as I want too. These are then easily converted to an operational lower with nothing more then a 50 dollar Jig and drill press.
    Or you can get a fancy CNC $1200 Jig such as that offered by Defense Industries. With this tool you can produce a clean operational lower comparable to the ones made by Colt.
    All other parts can be ordered online and assembled in the comfort of your own home with nothing but a credit card.

    This all goes deeper then the example I just provided. We are quickly reaching a point where gun control can no longer exist (at least not with Teeth)…not without technology control.

    Even if you changed the laws regarding the 80%. Modern Polymers are quickly being developed that are lighter stronger and can be milled with much more basic and cheaper CNC machines…. This doesn’t stop with Just an AR15 platform… though the design specs and G codes for the ar15 are more readily available.

    It is hard to control an item that can be easily developed in someone’s garage…. And honestly most guys I know like to tinker and build things just to do it.

    We are at a point where in order to talk about gu control ….. there has to be technology and communication control to go with it.

    And that is a topic that even the left wing doesn’t want to touch.

    I am just curious on where the gun grabbers plan to go from here.

    Ammunition control is obvious …. But that doesn’t scratch the surface.

    I guess I was just looking for guesstimates of how you see the world of gun control in 10 Years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanTides View Post
    We are quickly reaching a point where gun control can no longer exist (at least not with Teeth)….
    I'd wager we live in an age where gun control is already a practical impossibility and has been for some time.

    Lots of folks can make guns and don't need an 80% lower to pull it off. The U.S. Gov't dropped some thousands of Liberator pistols into occupied Europe at a cost of $2.40 each. Heck, Inland Guide Lamp Division of GM made a million of them in just 11 weeks. They're crude, but they're a gun a reasonably intelligent person could fabricate in a shed with just a file and a hammer and a box of odd parts and pipe fittings.

    There are, by most estimates, in excess of 300 million guns in the U.S., we've manufactured, bought, sold and traded firearms for a century without a registry. Knowing who has what, when, or where is just a practical impossibility.

    Also, don't forget- there is at least one AK47 pattern rifle for every 70 people on planet earth. The Soviet empire flooded every hot spot on the globe with them in an effort to destabilize democracy or strengthen Communism and that includes most of Central America- in fact, the one place on earth that real AK47s (full auto ones) are rare, is N.America. ...If the U.S. became a profitable market for black market AKs, there'd be one on the back of every Mexican drug mule hauling bags of dope north and mismarked crates in every port in the nation.

    The ability to 3-D print a receiver or upload code into a CNC mill is just one more example.
    "I do not deal in hypotheticals. The world, as it is, is vexing enough..." Col. Stonehill, True Grit

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    Tides where your wrong,what you are not getting is that gun control has nothing to do with controlling guns, gun control is just people control . . . it works and will always work pretty dang well too.

    Yea technology is advancing but I made a shotgunin shop class in 1974 with some ¾” pipe, 1” pipe, 1” pipe cap, and a ¼-20 bolt. . . all stuff sitting around and in an hour a ten year old right under the nose of the teacher had a working shotgun! The technology has always been there to make booze but the “A” in ATF is still for alcohol, anyone could make it but it’s still highly regulated. Every car made will exceedthe speed limit but we still have speed limits don’t we?? Sure almost anybody can make a machinegunfrom an AK in just a couple minuets but most never will because there are laws and you don’t want your life forever ruined by government when you get caught with a machinegun do you??

    You’re fooling yourself with your line ofthinking here that they can't stop it so there is no point in regulating it because It’s about controlling people not things. Cross their arbitrary line and there will be heII to pay . . . you will be made an example of even if they got to draw government pay with benefits for 30 years just to see to it! Don't you see Government wants you to brake laws so they have something to sell to the rest of the public, it's job security to them.

    Best example ever is the war on drugs, billions and billions of dollars have been spent on the war on drugs. Do we still have drugs? You bet we do, because billions and billions of dollars went to people who spent entire careers often becoming very wealthy pretending to give a crap about the evil illegal drugs many sheepepole fear.

    The drug war is winding down now and they need a replacement, if they can sell gun control maybe they can parlay that into another drug war that another generation of government cling-ons can line their pockets with . . . see they don’t want to control guns, they want a product they can sell to the sheepepole and maintain the control/power they have.
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    AD
    You have a direct hit. People control or power, if you will, is what it's all about.

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbuck351 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    It’s about controlling people not things. Cross their arbitrary line and there will be heII to pay . . .
    People control or power, if you will, is what it's all about.
    Must societies setting rules of conduct for themselves necessarily be arbitrary, or about power? Might it be collective decision making by the majority of the members, regarding the health and safety of said society?
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    Must societies setting rules of conduct for themselves necessarily be arbitrary, or about power? Might it be a collective decision by the majority of the members, regarding the health and safety of said society?
    No, and No! But a quick look at the ineffective results of the enormously expensive efforts exuded by the power elite (who live by their own set of rules), can lead to only one logical conclusion. It's about power and control.
    Your sarcasm is way, waaaayyyyyyyy more sarcastic than mine!

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    Quote Originally Posted by cod View Post
    It's about power and control.
    What if it's not? What if the majority of the members of said society, in fact, disagree with you? What then?
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    What if it's not? What if the majority of the members of said society, in fact, disagree with you? What then?
    Well, that is basically what happened across most, if not all, of the other countries, and why for many generations folks have fled to America seeking FREEDOM from those well intentioned majorities. Societies seem to be heavily weighted by meek individuals that feel a rule or law will protect them from all evils, we know through-out history that is a falsehood. Many well intentioned governments over time became ruled by evil peoples that took advantage of the unarmed residents, that is a real fear to be considered. The process of disarming citizens is the beginning of many future unknowns that could come into power of rule.. One fact that stands out is once a freedom has been taken away from peoples its very hard to ever re-gain.
    Do I fear my neighbor will shoot me for some reason - NO.
    Do I fear my gov't is going to directly harm me - not really.
    Do I fear losing my freedoms to own guns could lead to eventual rule by evil whether home grown, or from abroad - yes.
    The majority in a society do not always make the safest choices in the long run. Staying free means the majority still have limits of what they can force upon others through voting away rights.
    When asked what state I live in I say "The State of Confusion", better known as IL....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokey View Post
    The majority in a society do not always make the safest choices in the long run.
    True. But good that they make a group decision through democratic process and agree to abide by it, no? What better alternative?
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    What if it's not? What if the majority of the members of said society, in fact, disagree with you? What then?
    That's not the case in today's society. However, that would make a good fairy tale.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    True. But good that they make a group decision through democratic process and agree to abide by it, no? What better alternative?
    Yes, agreed that the democratic process has good merit - however the founders also realized it has flaws that could lead to a majority, built up over time, that would take them back to what they fled from - thus the Bill of Rights! That is why the 2nd A is of such value - it does prevent the process of becoming so powerful it erodes the very foundation of freedom.
    When asked what state I live in I say "The State of Confusion", better known as IL....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    What if it's not? What if the majority of the members of said society, in fact, disagree with you? What then?
    That's not the case in today's society.
    What's not the case?
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokey View Post
    Yes, agreed that the democratic process has good merit - however the founders also realized it has flaws that could lead to a majority, built up over time, that would take them back to what they fled from - thus the Bill of Rights! That is why the 2nd A is of such value - it does prevent the process of becoming so powerful it erodes the very foundation of freedom.
    And what if said system devolves to a point where a huge corporate military-industrial complex corrupts the system and uses a small minority of the population as tools to subvert the will of the majority? Would that not effectively take them back to what they fled from?
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It
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    And what if a small group of elitist politicians and their wealthy benefactors decide that it's in societies best interest to simply let them make all the decisions and that would be better handled if they disarmed the people who might opposed them so they collude together to convince people that it's in their best interest to make scary things illegal using public relations and propaganda, aka agit-prop?

    I wonder what that might look like, Bloomberg?

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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    And what if said system devolves to a point where a huge corporate military-industrial complex corrupts the system and uses a small minority of the population as tools to subvert the will of the majority? Would that not effectively take them back to what they fled from?

    "huge corporate military-industrial complex" none bigger than the United States Government . . . or more corrupt! This is the power I was talking about, government has the power and if your a "huge corporate military-industrial complex" you got to go bribe a bunch of politicians to get anyplace . . . better be enough too or you'll have alphabet soup all over you till the extract all your wealth in fins!
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    Dang I am learning a lot about shooting in Alaska here! Good job all!
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