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Thread: bear baiting legality question

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    Default bear baiting legality question

    I just received a citation for not being 1/4 mile from the road. The area I am in is a very steep. The way I originally measured it out years ago was pacing it off. By the ground I am roughly 480 yards from the road. The trooper is using GPS way points and measuring a nautical mile. I have been to a court hearing where a guy was cited for being .9 miles from a cabin or house. And the guy was able to recite verbal from the codified regs that say a statute mile is measured by the ground. Has any one had any experience with this? If this was you in the case mentioned here, if you could Co tact me so I could get some advice that would be great. Any input would be appreciated. If you don't want to air diety history feel free to pm me

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    Member akshootnscoot's Avatar
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    1 nautical mile = 1.1 statute miles. I'm fairly confident that the distance that matters is as the crow flies. I.E. - bird creek sheep and other hunts with codified minimum distances from the highway, you can't just walk 450 yds uphill of the highway and start shooting. You have to break out the GPS

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    Quote Originally Posted by akshootnscoot View Post
    1 nautical mile = 1.1 statute miles. I'm fairly confident that the distance that matters is as the crow flies. I.E. - bird creek sheep and other hunts with codified minimum distances from the highway, you can't just walk 450 yds uphill of the highway and start shooting. You have to break out the GPS
    +1 Yep horizontal distance.

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    The measurement that a cop gets is from a laid down, flat map. This is what they'll go by. As the crow flies. Terrain differentials means nada...
    Bummer on the ticket mud....

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    Frankly, giving yourself "roughly" only a 40 yard buffer by pacing it off which is obviously not an exact or precise way to measure distance was your mistake. You asked for input...take your lumps and use it as a learning experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frostbitten View Post
    Frankly, giving yourself "roughly" only a 40 yard buffer by pacing it off which is obviously not an exact or precise way to measure distance was your mistake. You asked for input...take your lumps and use it as a learning experience.
    I do appreciate the input, be it good or bad. But being as hard headed and stubborn as I am, I will not go down with out a fight. I want to know what the law actually states. And if it does not define that it has to be nautical mile or GPS mile then and fo of a mile should be sufficient by law. The same as the moose regs when it reads one moose.....male or female doesn't matter. When you get a speeding ticket, they measure the MPH by distance traveled over the ground. And when I originally found the place that I got cited I did not own a gps, your are not allowed motorized vehicles, and fish and game does not require a gps coordinate (up until today I thought they did. The dude at fish and game corrected me)

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    Quote Originally Posted by mudman1 View Post
    And if it does not define that it has to be nautical mile or GPS mile then and fo of a mile should be sufficient by law.
    You might be on to something. You could hire a surveyor to survey and record the distances you speak of, possibly hire an attorney to help fight it for you. Pleading no contest and simply paying the ticket would probably be cheaper and free up some time to do some hunting.

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    Does the Codified specify Nautical and not Statute miles? Statue Miles are shorter.
    Second, the regs state distance from point to point. Therefore it does not matter if the map is flat, or the aircraft is flying. Where the aircraft is, even over the bait site, is not where the bait site is.
    Next. Is the road publicly maintained? I.e. is there a budget set to maintain it? If not, then it is not a "road" by the regs.
    Several years back a forum member got cited for distance from a power line. We all said fight it. He did not, too bad.
    Cheap way is to go buy a 500' or longer tape and stretch it out to get a rough idea. Then, as necessary, hire a surveyor, or rent the equipment.
    So, if all of those questions are answered, and at the end of the day you are still wrong, well, pay the bill.
    ARR

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ak River Rat View Post
    Does the Codified specify Nautical and not Statute miles? Statue Miles are shorter.
    Second, the regs state distance from point to point. Therefore it does not matter if the map is flat, or the aircraft is flying. Where the aircraft is, even over the bait site, is not where the bait site is.
    Next. Is the road publicly maintained? I.e. is there a budget set to maintain it? If not, then it is not a "road" by the regs.
    Several years back a forum member got cited for distance from a power line. We all said fight it. He did not, too bad.
    Cheap way is to go buy a 500' or longer tape and stretch it out to get a rough idea. Then, as necessary, hire a surveyor, or rent the equipment.
    So, if all of those questions are answered, and at the end of the day you are still wrong, well, pay the bill.
    ARR
    The codified regulations do not say nautical/statute. They do not have a definition in the definitions section of the codified regs that discusses the topic under any verbage. So I am Def going to fight it. I bought a surveying wheel, but is impossible to get it through the thick aldershot and crap accurately. And the road I'm sure is maintained but where would I find out whether there is a budget for it?

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    Registering a Bait Station: What to Bring

    Be sure to come to the Fish & Game office with all required paperwork in hand. Here’s what you’ll need:
    1. You must know the exact location where you will put your station(s) and have a written description of how to get there; e.g., Jones Road mile 125, south one mile down public easement trail, head due east 1350 ft into the woods.
    With today’s technology, most bear hunters have access to a Global Positioning System (GPS). Specifying GPS coordinates is an excellent way of registering your bait station. The proper format to use would be degrees followed by decimal minutes (e.g., N 61° 18.745’ W 149° 57.836’). You must also note which format your GPS unit is set on: WGS 84, NAD 27, or NAD 83. In GMUs 1–5 it is a requirement of the bear baiter to provide exact GPS coordinates of their sites. Please check the current regulations as other GMUs may be added each year based on Board of Game action.

    Reading the above information it is impossible to comply to the reg as they are written.
    Point #1 a hand held GPS can not give you the “exact location”
    Point #2 in there example N 61* 18.745 W 149* 57.836 is not even close.
    Point #3 is the Trooper GPS calibrated? Ask to see when it was last calibrated? How else can a Trooper know where the “exact location” or distance is unless it's calibrated?

    Request a copy of ALL the information the Trooper has that include audio recording and GPS information.

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    Member JR2's Avatar
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    I didn't know GPS had to be calibrated.. But the point about decimal vs degree min sec is very valid.

    Hire a surveyor to measure to the edge of the road...

    How far under the 1/4 mile did the officer say you were? 40 ft could be GPS error, 500 ft not so much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudman1 View Post
    The codified regulations do not say nautical/statute. They do not have a definition in the definitions section of the codified regs that discusses the topic under any verbage. So I am Def going to fight it. I bought a surveying wheel, but is impossible to get it through the thick aldershot and crap accurately. And the road I'm sure is maintained but where would I find out whether there is a budget for it?
    Definition of maintained road by NFS is a road maintained at which a high clearance 2 wheel drive vehicles can pass with no problem. Also if there is not a sign stating no winter maintenance, then it is either not maintained or it has to be kept open all winter.

    I also agree there is no definition of a nautical or statute mile. I figured it was a statute mile, since I have never seen a bear that can fly.

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    How far under the 1/4 mile did the officer say you were? 40 ft could be GPS error, 500 ft not so much.[/QUOTE]



    He says by his measurement I am at .13 of a mile. And since it is not really a secret, I am off the hope highway which is steep. I don't know that he has a gps error but I will Def ask if they calibrate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhhunter76 View Post
    Definition of maintained road by NFS is a road maintained at which a high clearance 2 wheel drive vehicles can pass with no problem.

    I also agree there is no definition of a nautical or statute mile. I figured it was a statute mile, since I have never seen a bear that can fly.



    The hope highway is Def a maintained highway. And I tried to explain the bear flying thing to the trooper and a guy at fishing and game and they seem to think they do have some flight capabilities....

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    You can certainly fight it if you wish, but by your own admission, you were "roughly 480 yards" (meaning you didn't know exactly how far) from the road, and you measured it by counting paces through thick alders while climbing the hill. Bummer of a situation, but I think you're throwing good money after bad by trying to fight it. GPS is widely accepted as accurate...pacing, not so much. Good luck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frostbitten View Post
    You can certainly fight it if you wish, but by your own admission, you were "roughly 480 yards" (meaning you didn't know exactly how far) from the road, and you measured it by counting paces through thick alders while climbing the hill. Bummer of a situation, but I think you're throwing good money after bad by trying to fight it. GPS is widely accepted as accurate...pacing, not so much. Good luck.
    I originally found my spot in the middle of winter on snow shoes scouting for my spot and was not fighting the aldershot at the time. I remwasured after this incident to verify I wasn't way off base. And once again the gps does not take into account elevation gain. And I am not spending any real money to fight it, and I have am mandatory court appearance for it. Would be stupid not to fight it.

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    .13 vs .25 of a mile is pretty significant. …I doubt the gps error was that large

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    I don't think he had an error with his gps. H3 is just not measure the up down of the terrain that me and every furry four legged critter have to walk up and down to get to and from the road....

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    Quote Originally Posted by mudman1 View Post
    The hope highway is Def a maintained highway. And I tried to explain the bear flying thing to the trooper and a guy at fishing and game and they seem to think they do have some flight capabilities....
    Yes but there is a sign at the Den highway saying no winter maintenance.

    The problem is they write the regulations for interpretation. Even if you call the game and fish departments in different areas, you will get a different answer on the same question. I got fined because I got my fishing license 2 months early, because the regulations say maintaining a property for a year. I bought the house in August and was putting money in and fixing it up, but did not move everything in till October and get my drivers license. I discussed the maintaining a property with the trooper and he said no. I couldn't justify taking the time off work to fight it.

    I hope you can and will. The actual laws are very poorly written in the regulations, which makes it bad for us the sportsman.

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    And don't get me wrong I have nothing against the troopers or the job they do. I respect every officer for their work. However the regulations are written for interpretation, and as I stated it depends on which office you call or officer you talk to as to what answer you receive.

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