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Thread: and the closures continue...

  1. #1
    Member willphish4food's Avatar
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    Default and the closures continue...

    http://www.adn.com/article/20150522/...-alaska-rivers

    Due to widespread freshwater habitat issues only, sportfishing for kings in these western alaska waters has been closed. Managers are looking at beavers, trees fallen across waterways, and speckle bellied guppies as possible culprits in the decline of western Alaska chinook stocks.

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    Member fishNphysician's Avatar
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    The Yukon River king return, however, has shown some improvement in recent years, with the number of kings counted at Pilot Station, 121 miles upstream from the river mouth, increasing 30 percent since 2012 to more than 138,000 fish -- but only with all fishing for kings shut down. And thatís still far from such large returns as the 268,000 Yukon kings counted in 2003.

    Well, not quite...

    Lets not kid ourselves. The draggers indiscriminately killing subadult/prespawn kings by the 100's of thousands are still busy low-holing the home team.
    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishNphysician View Post
    The Yukon River king return, however, has shown some improvement in recent years, with the number of kings counted at Pilot Station, 121 miles upstream from the river mouth, increasing 30 percent since 2012 to more than 138,000 fish -- but only with all fishing for kings shut down. And thatís still far from such large returns as the 268,000 Yukon kings counted in 2003.

    Well, not quite...

    Lets not kid ourselves. The draggers indiscriminately killing subadult/prespawn kings by the 100's of thousands are still busy low-holing the home team.
    Hey Doc, do you think low holing in the ocean has anything to do why the early Kenai king run has been so down?

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    It is obvious, pike, beaver, culverts, development, too many guides and krsa! Nothing going on in the ocean, nothing at all
    Quote Originally Posted by willphish4food View Post
    http://www.adn.com/article/20150522/...-alaska-rivers

    Due to widespread freshwater habitat issues only, sportfishing for kings in these western alaska waters has been closed. Managers are looking at beavers, trees fallen across waterways, and speckle bellied guppies as possible culprits in the decline of western Alaska chinook stocks.

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    Member thewhop2000's Avatar
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    Will is right. It has to be the guppies. Plus pike and KRSA
    If a dipnetter dips a fish and there is no one around to see/hear it, Did he really dip?

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    Quote Originally Posted by penguin View Post
    Hey Doc, do you think low holing in the ocean has anything to do why the early Kenai king run has been so down?
    Hey Penguin, do you think guides slamming the 5 and 6 yr returning kings in the Kenai River throughout the 1980's, 1990's, and on while many of these kings were on their spawning grounds had ANYTHING at all to do with the decimation of the once reknowned Kenai King run? Or are we to just pretend that this had no bearing? And should we then try to believe that KSRA (you know, the river guardians) did absolutely everything they could to save the rivers kings, but alas, they just couldn't do it?!!
    Your sarcasm is way, waaaayyyyyyyy more sarcastic than mine!

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    Quote Originally Posted by yukon View Post
    It is obvious, pike, beaver, culverts, development, too many guides and krsa! Nothing going on in the ocean, nothing at all
    I cannot believe the ignorance of some on this forum. To ignore freshwater issues and just focus on marine issues defies logic. The Yukon has serious issues with in-river harvest and meeting spawning numbers, it has disease questions, it has a variety of other issues. The Kenai early run has been severely damaged and now Slikok, Beaver, Juneau, Cooper, and Soldotna Creek no longer have chinook in any numbers - and yes Yukon the guided fishery contributed to that outcome. ADF&G may be responsible for not acting but the guides put pressure on them not to act. Also, the overcounting of chinook due to sockeye contributed to overharvest.

    No one is saying the marine environment has maintained productivity it has not but one cannot ignore the freshwater loss of productivity that has been concurrent with the marine downturn.

    Also, there are systems that are doing fine and no one wants to list them or say why they continue to produce good numbers of fish.

  9. #9

    Default and the closures continue...

    Quote Originally Posted by yukon View Post
    It is obvious, pike, beaver, culverts, development, too many guides and krsa! Nothing going on in the ocean, nothing at all
    While I appreciate the sarcasm, I feel a little bad for you Yukon. While you are helping fund a movement to eliminate my fishery to "conserve" yours, I see the number of boats on the water today from Clam Gulch to Homer and realize that you are losing your fishery just the same. Word's out. You don't have to sit on the spawning beds to catch kings. Better get used to being low-holed and trade that Willie in on a six-pack.

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    Member fishNphysician's Avatar
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    Moving the king fishery into the salt does NOTHING to help the situation.

    From the standpoint of escapement goal management, in-river harvest of salmon is a far better strategy. All that low-holing in mixed-stock ocean/marine fisheries just makes the whole thing that much more convoluted... and MUCH more difficult to achieve.
    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
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    Quote Originally Posted by smithtb View Post
    While I appreciate the sarcasm, I feel a little bad for you Yukon. While you are helping fund a movement to eliminate my fishery to "conserve" yours, I see the number of boats on the water today from Clam Gulch to Homer and realize that you are losing your fishery just the same. Word's out. You don't have to sit on the spawning beds to catch kings. Better get used to being low-holed and trade that Willie in on a six-pack.
    From what ive heard most of kings being caught along shore are feeder kings so far. Memorial weekend is always busy along the eastside shore and doubt theres more traffic than normal. I really cant believe that washington/BC hasnt caught on to how many feeder kings are caught out off the south kenai now and demanded some better record keeping.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fishNphysician View Post
    Moving the king fishery into the salt does NOTHING to help the situation.

    From the standpoint of escapement goal management, in-river harvest of salmon is a far better strategy. All that low-holing in mixed-stock ocean/marine fisheries just makes the whole thing that much more convoluted... and MUCH more difficult to achieve.
    Didn't say it was better, just more popular.

    But IMO it has less impact on the habitat and is harder to selectively fish one specific stock or age class out of existence. But who knows.

    Yes 33, lots of feeders. Some bigger ones in the mix this time of year. Lots of good times too. And I simply can't believe that if there is good feed close to home ALL of our fish would pass up that opportunity. I'd bet there are more "Cookies" caught than we think.

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    Member willphish4food's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    I cannot believe the ignorance of some on this forum. To ignore freshwater issues and just focus on marine issues defies logic. The Yukon has serious issues with in-river harvest and meeting spawning numbers, it has disease questions, it has a variety of other issues. The Kenai early run has been severely damaged and now Slikok, Beaver, Juneau, Cooper, and Soldotna Creek no longer have chinook in any numbers - and yes Yukon the guided fishery contributed to that outcome. ADF&G may be responsible for not acting but the guides put pressure on them not to act. Also, the overcounting of chinook due to sockeye contributed to overharvest.

    No one is saying the marine environment has maintained productivity it has not but one cannot ignore the freshwater loss of productivity that has been concurrent with the marine downturn.

    Also, there are systems that are doing fine and no one wants to list them or say why they continue to produce good numbers of fish.
    I'll say it: Deshka River is about the only Susitna Chinook fishery doing well. It has beavers, pike, and sport fishing.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by willphish4food View Post
    I'll say it: Deshka River is about the only Susitna Chinook fishery doing well. It has beavers, pike, and sport fishing.
    Failing to see your point.

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    Last night 6 kings 4 halibut on the troll, 4 of the kings were fin clipped. 3 were white. The stocking done in Canada, Washington, and Oregon has made king fishing in Cook Inlet better then it has ever been.
    Quote Originally Posted by smithtb View Post
    Didn't say it was better, just more popular.

    But IMO it has less impact on the habitat and is harder to selectively fish one specific stock or age class out of existence. But who knows.

    Yes 33, lots of feeders. Some bigger ones in the mix this time of year. Lots of good times too. And I simply can't believe that if there is good feed close to home ALL of our fish would pass up that opportunity. I'd bet there are more "Cookies" caught than we think.

  16. #16
    Member hoose35's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smithtb View Post
    While I appreciate the sarcasm, I feel a little bad for you Yukon. While you are helping fund a movement to eliminate my fishery to "conserve" yours, I see the number of boats on the water today from Clam Gulch to Homer and realize that you are losing your fishery just the same. Word's out. You don't have to sit on the spawning beds to catch kings. Better get used to being low-holed and trade that Willie in on a six-pack.
    A good number of kenai guides already have saltwater boats booking through them. Double dipping
    Responsible Conservation > Political Allocation

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    Quote Originally Posted by yukon View Post
    It is obvious, pike, beaver, culverts, development, too many guides and krsa!
    Quote Originally Posted by willphish4food
    Managers are looking at beavers, trees fallen across waterways, and speckle bellied guppies as possible culprits
    Quote Originally Posted by thewhop2000
    It has to be the guppies. Plus pike and KRSA
    Yep, you're right. It's obvious...

    http://www.adn.com/article/20150113/...-turned-corner
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Kenai Crowd.jpg   Kenai Crowd 3.jpg  

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    Doc, you are a much better poster when you stick to facts. What years were the draggers recently taking hundreds of thousands? Answer is never in Alaska anyway. Highest year was 2007 with about 130,000 in the all BSAI fisheries. Those were the big bycatch years that resulted in lots of changes. There is real pain involved right now for many involved in the Chinook issues. I mean subsistence, commercial, and recreational users. Those people deserve the respect of facts Doc.

    In fact due to recent council actions on Chinook bycatch regulations the Non-Pollock and Rockfish trawl fisheries in the Gulf of Alaska are now closed. That is real, that is what is going on in the federal fisheries. This is a relatively new reg, but it's something real, tangible, and is impactful to lots of people. The BSAI has a host of regulations on Chinook that sure seem to be effective. The GOA is improving year to year, and things are moving on the council level towards more regulations for Chinook imo.

    http://alaskafisheries.noaa.gov/cm/i...letin_id=10297

    That means no trawl fishing for Pacific Cod or Flatfish for the rest of the year *edit for the Gulf of Alaska*. That is real impacts on real people. People wanted a hard cap, and one just shut down an entire sector. No one is saying Ocean impacts, of which bycatch are one of many, are not important or impactful. They are and bycatch must be regulated, and reduced. However, the issue of trawl bycatch is not the end all-be all way to fix this issue or some sort of magic bullet. There has been a lot or work done on Chinook bycatch reduction, with much more that is upcoming in Federal fisheries. It's dishonest to not acknowledge these changes, actual publically obtainable numbers, or inflate the numbers.

    Most Chinook issues are local issues. Where local impacts can and will have the greatest effect.


    link to chinook bycatch measures.
    http://alaskafisheries.noaa.gov/sust...ch/default.htm

    Link to bycatch numbers by year for BSAI.
    http://alaskafisheries.noaa.gov/sust..._mortality.pdf

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    Member sayak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funstastic View Post
    No! That trophy king-hungry gauntlet can't possibly have anything to do with the Kenai king's demise. Got be those evil set netters.

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