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Thread: more on battery problem

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    Member tlingitwarrior's Avatar
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    Default more on battery problem

    I posted something on this last year I believe. Here is the issue. 4 battery system, one each for starting the twin outboards, and two for house battery. Both house batteries are on one switch, and separate switch for each starting battery. The switch bank also has an emergency parallel switch.

    Not all the time, but more than half, I will turn off the switches, but they don't act like they are off. For instance on the starting batteries, they will be switched off, but if I turn the keys on the Yamaha outboards to on, it will light up the gauges. Now they will switch to completely off if I try to start them. Same for the house battery, it will have a residual "charge" in the system, but if I turn on a high use object, like the lift system for the kicker, it will "drain" it, and all systems are off.

    Something in the system is keeping a charge after the switches are turned off, and it stays on until something drains that residual charge.

    I'm clueless. Any ideas?
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    I remember that problem.........I did not jump in because the answers you were given did not make sense it me. But as bad as some boat are wire it could a good answer.

    My first guess would be one of the battery switches may have a problem where it not completely disconnecting the battery. If you don't have a schematic you need to get one it will make your life a lot simpler and save you a lot of money if you have a technician work on your boat.

    It could also be corrosion across terminals. Come to think about It like that answer better than the first one. I wonder if later on I will think of an even better answer.

    Until them find that schematic.

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    Member tlingitwarrior's Avatar
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    I have cleaned up all the battery terminals. Next up is to clean up all the terminals in the switches.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    I wonder if later on I will think of an even better answer.

    Until them find that schematic.
    Trouble shooting a problem on a form or in person is a lot like a Murder Mystery. You never have all the information and most times it's miss leading or never mention until the last few pages.

    As promptest it later on and I do have another better answer. But first with out a schematic I need you to clarify a few thing. Are the two house batteries parallel (three battery system)?

    With all the battery switches off. When you turn the key on the Yamaha outboards are the panel lights bright or dim? Are the panel light LED or or the old stile lamps?

    Are there any other electronics on when all the battery switch are off?

    Do both engines have the same problems? If so, when you use the kicker lift does the panel lights go off on both engines or just one?

    What happen when you start the engines do they start do the panel light go out? What battery system is the kicker wire to? How are you charging all the batteries with or with out using a ACR? If you are using a ACR's how are they wires?

    You may think I'm asking a lot of dumb question. But with out seeing the boat there no other way of trying to make sense out of a senseless problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    Trouble shooting a problem on a form or in person is a lot like a Murder Mystery. You never have all the information and most times it's miss leading or never mention until the last few pages.

    As promptest it later on and I do have another better answer. But first with out a schematic I need you to clarify a few thing. Are the two house batteries parallel (three battery system)?

    With all the battery switches off. When you turn the key on the Yamaha outboards are the panel lights bright or dim? Are the panel light LED or or the old stile lamps?

    Are there any other electronics on when all the battery switch are off?

    Do both engines have the same problems? If so, when you use the kicker lift does the panel lights go off on both engines or just one?

    What happen when you start the engines do they start do the panel light go out? What battery system is the kicker wire to? How are you charging all the batteries with or with out using a ACR? If you are using a ACR's how are they wires?

    You may think I'm asking a lot of dumb question. But with out seeing the boat there no other way of trying to make sense out of a senseless problem.
    House batteries are parallel

    When battery switches are off for the starting batteries, you can see full gauge mode, no dimness showing. As soon as you try to start, you get an extremely brief engagement of the starters, then nothing. As if you had a dead battery. Both engines exhibit the same, and each is on a separate switch. Panel lights are LED.

    The kicker lift, etc is on the house battery. Once again, all electronics will turn on when switch is off, and only when a high draw is put to them, such as kicker lift, will the "charge" dissipate and it looks and acts like it should with battery switch off.

    The system does have a automatic charger, is that an ACR? This model has three wires, one each to the starter batteries and one to one of the house batteries.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlingitwarrior View Post
    The system does have a automatic charger, is that an ACR? This model has three wires, one each to the starter batteries and one to one of the house batteries.
    Yes........ the ACR is a automatic battery charger and if it a Blue Sea ACR it could be wire wrong causing your problem per my information.

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    Disconnect the battery charger and see what happens, I suspect you are getting some small amount of current flow when not under load, as soon as you place a load on the system it completes the disconnect, this could be a issue with the ACR as well. Blue Seas ACR is a charging relay, essentially disconnecting the battery's when the voltage drops to prevent discharge of house and starting battery's simultaneously.
    In the old days they were called battery isolators and used diodes, diodes are not as efficient as relays and relays do a better job at maintaining battery voltage. However they have contacts and can be undersized and fail.
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    There's a battery charger!!!!!? Know one mention a battery charger!!!! This is getting to sound more like a Murder Mystery. LOL

    If there is a battery charger it would be wire across one or more batteries depending on its design. The starter batteries, on-off switches are off disconnecting the starter battery and any charger from the engine wiring (if wire correctly) there fore it can not possibly be the problem.

    That said..... with out a as-built schematic you could be right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    There's a battery charger!!!!!? Know one mention a battery charger!!!!.This is getting to sound more like a Murder Mystery.
    Murder mystery indeed.......! LOL, just electrical gremlins running amock......

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    Yes........ the ACR is a automatic battery charger and if it a Blue Sea ACR it could be wire wrong causing your problem per my information.
    ACR is a charging relay to direct current form the alternator, not a charger in itself, I thought you were referring to two separate components and one was a charger.....

    Quote Originally Posted by tlingitwarrior View Post
    The system does have a automatic charger, is that an ACR? This model has three wires, one each to the starter batteries and one to one of the house batteries.
    ACR is a automatic charging relay, do you have a battery charger as well.....?
    “Nothing worth doing is easy”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akgramps View Post

    ACR is a charging relay to direct current form the alternator, not a charger in itself, I thought you were referring to two separate components and one was a charger.....


    Murder mysteries and my posts are known for miss direction. The only difference is mine are not intentional. Sorry about that. LOL

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    No "shortage" of mysterious with electrical stuff, fortunately very few murders... through continuity we can reach common ground...
    “Nothing worth doing is easy”
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    Ok, I've found what looks to be the culprit, but have yet to track down where things are going south. For give my layman terms on this stuff, but electronic terms aren't my thing.

    Looking at the fuse box, there is a tripped switch for the bilge pump. I guess these things are switches, little white button to push in to reset. So with battery switches off, if you reset the switch, the bilge pump turns on and won't turn off. There is a residual charge in the system, and it stays on until I use a high use item such as lift for the kicker. Once I engage the kicker lift, it takes out the charge, turns off the bilge and trips that switch again.

    Further information. The boat has an electronic key pad that controls the wipers, lights, bilge, wipers, etc. There are two buttons for both the bilge pumps. With batteries on, I can turn on both pumps and they work fine. They work fine on manual even with the switch being tripped.
    This is what I know today. Going to dive into the mystery more tonight.
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    [QUOTE=tlingitwarrior;1471529]Ok,
    Looking at the fuse box, there is a tripped switch for the bilge pump. I guess these things are switches, little white button to push in to reset. So with battery switches off, if you reset the switch, the bilge pump turns on and won't turn off. There is a residual charge in the system, and it stays on until I use a high use item such as lift for the kicker. Once I engage the kicker lift, it takes out the charge, turns off the bilge and trips that switch again.

    Your describing a circuit breaker a switch would not reset its self. Is there any number on the little white button like 5 or 10 meaning 5 or 10 amp? Is there any information on the panel that would identify the maker.

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    MacGyver, its a 5 amp E-T-A breaker.
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    Not knowing what bulge pumps you have 5 amp seams two small. I would think it should be 15 amps. Even if it is the corrected size CB. I don't think that your problem. Have you had any success find a schematic?


    Is everything on the CB panel hot or just the bulge pumps? Where is the power coming from the house battery when the battery switch is on or strait from a battery?

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    Problem solved. Faulty float switch. New pump put in and all is well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlingitwarrior View Post
    Problem solved. Faulty float switch. New pump put in and all is well.
    That's good news and it explain why the bulge pump is running when the CB is reset. It also may explain what made the float switch go bad. It does not explain why the motor lift is blowing the CB or why there is voltage on the engines panel when the bulge pump is running. What is the recommended fuse for your new pump is it 10A if not it need the proper size CB.

    It may be time to have someone with marine electronics experience with the proper test equipment look at your boat wiring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    That's good news and it explain why the bulge pump is running when the CB is reset. It also may explain what made the float switch go bad. It does not explain why the motor lift is blowing the CB or why there is voltage on the engines panel when the bulge pump is running. What is the recommended fuse for your new pump is it 10A if not it need the proper size CB.

    It may be time to have someone with marine electronics experience with the proper test equipment look at your boat wiring.
    Here is how I see it. The CB has constant power running through it, to the constant power lead for the float switch. Bad float was pushing current back through the system. My brothernlaw is an electrician and I called him up last night and he explained. This was the factory wiring from SeaSport so I assume they had it right?
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    So is your problem fixed? I think your bilge pump problem is separate from other problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tlingitwarrior View Post
    Here is how I see it. The CB has constant power running through it, to the constant power lead for the float switch. Bad float was pushing current back through the system. My brothernlaw is an electrician and I called him up last night and he explained. This was the factory wiring from SeaSport so I assume they had it right?
    I agree with your brother-in-law he is right in his explanation.

    Email my post to your BIL and ask him if it normal for the lift or engine starters to blow the CB going to bulge pump when it running? Also tell him there are stand-a-lone systems?

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