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Thread: Here is a link to write our reps about this M855 ban crap

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    Default Here is a link to write our reps about this M855 ban crap

    Please follow the link and all you have to do is fill in your info and it will send the pre written letter to all our reps. You can add or remove anything you want in the letter as well. Let's stick together and squash this crap. The Second Amendment says nothing about this bull crap sporting purpose ****!!!! A well regulated militia has no sporting purpose except to rid our country of ******s like we have in office now. If you all don't stand up now our voice will be lost and you will have given away our rights instead of fighting back like our founding fathers did!!!!!

    http://www.nssfblog.com/oppose-atf-5...mmunition-ban/

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    Did it. Thanks!

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    Done!!!

    Thank you for taking action on our issue.

    Your message for "Write to Congress and the ATF. Urge them to stop the ATF 5.56 M855 ball ammunition ban." was sent on 03/05/2015 03:04 PM to the following recipients: Sen. Daniel Sullivan (R-AK), Sen. Lisa Murkowski (R-AK), Denise Brown (NP-DC), Rep. Don Young (R-AK).
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    Contacting your legislators is EASY.

    It is easy to find the websites of Congressman Don Young, Senator Lisa Murkowski, and Dan Sullivan.

    I have them ALL bookmarked.

    I sent a message to each one, using some of the verbiage found in Andy's post on the other thread about this issue.

    Doin it this way, you needn't give your contact information to the NSSF, (not that would be a bad thing, it's up to you.)

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    I posted this in the other thread a couple days ago.....

    http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/fil...g_purposes.pdf



    VI. PUBLIC PARTICIPATION
    ATF will carefully consider all comments, as appropriate, received on or before March 16,2015, and will give comments received after that date the same consideration if it is practical todo so, but assurance of consideration cannot be given except as to comments received on orbefore March 16, 2015. ATF will not acknowledge receipt of comments.
    Submit comments in any of three ways (but do not submit the same comments multipletimes or by more than one method):

    • ATF website: [COLOR=rgb(0.000000%, 0.000000%, 100.000000%)]APAComments@atf.gov[/COLOR]. Follow the instructions for submitting comments.
    • Fax: (202) 648-9741.
    • Mail: Denise Brown, Mailstop 6N-602, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Enforcement Programs
      and Services, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, 99 New York Avenue,
      NE, Washington, DC 20226: ATTN: AP Ammo Comments.
      FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Denise Brown, Enforcement Programs andServices, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives,U.S. Department of Justice, 99 New York Avenue, NE, Washington, DC 20226; telephone202) 648-7070.


    If you don't want to write your own letter this site makes it easy. Provided you agree with their "canned" letter.

    https://fighttheatf.org/stop-the-62gr-m855-ammo-ban/


    Here's the letter...

    Dear Ms. Denise Brown,I am sending you this letter to voice my solemn opposition to the recent publication titled, "ATF Framework for Determining Whether Certain Projectiles are 'Primarily Intended for Sporting Purposes' Within the Meaning of 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(C)" and the changes set forth within it that would effectively ban the manufacture and sale of the popular 62gr M855 ammunition.While the safety of our law enforcement officers is of great importance it should be noted that the Level II and Level IIIA protective body armor typically worn by officers is characterized by its design to only minimize the danger posed by handgun cartridges. As the 62gr M855 is not a handgun cartridge, it does not pose a danger to law enforcement officers that is significantly greater than any other centerfire rifle cartridge.Upon a close inspection of the 62gr M855 cartridge you will find it does not meet the legal definition of armor piercing ammunition as it is loaded with a multi-sectional projectile constructed largely of a non-armor piercing soft lead core with an unhardened mild steel tip inside a copper jacket.Lastly, the 62gr M855 is used by and large for sporting purposes by both recreational and competitive target shooters as well as small game hunters as it is affordable and readily available on the surplus market.Thank you for your time and consideration of these facts when determining if the 62gr M855 will continue to be available to law abiding firearm owners across the country as it has been for many years.Respectfully,
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again

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    Public comment period is just for show. The new rules are already in the 2015 regulation book that is updated every 10 years.
    http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepa...ition-n1966761
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayling Slayer View Post
    Public comment period is just for show. The new rules are already in the 2015 regulation book that is updated every 10 years.
    http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepa...ition-n1966761
    I just read this myself. Thanks for posting. It's worth saying it again: GREEN TIP IS ALREADY BANNED!


    http://m.townhall.com/tipsheet/katie...ition-n1966761

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    It doesn't matter if it's already banned or not you still shouldn't roll over and take it!!! Send more letters tell govt officials this is not ok and make them do something about it. These executive orders can be reversed as well as ATF laws of they are taken on by the people. Even if they don't want to listen or are saying they already made a decision and just use or opinion to make us think we have a voice they still can't ignore us all. A lot of you guys will still do nothing like always as our rights slowly get stripped away. Never give up and don't take no for an answer guys!!! Here is another link to send letters to ATF and our reps.

    http://savem855.com/

  9. #9

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    It's not the ATF you have to thank ; It's a couple small companies that turn AR rifle platforms into BATF legal handguns. Once the guns are on the market the ammo available becomes subject to the law that prohibits armor piercing ammo for handguns. They did this in 1994 to the 7.62x39 doubling the market price of ammo overnight, as most ammo was imported from the Com-Bloc; and later when the 5.7x28 HK hit the streets. They almost outlawed ALL 50 BMG in 1995 when Maddi Griffin premiered 4 prototype bolt action handguns at the Shot Show. But, the 50 Caliber Shooters Association got Maddi to withdraw it's entry as it would have put Maddi out of business, they only built 50 BMG rifles at that time; ALL 50 BMG is armor piercing out of a handgun.
    If any other calibers are incorporated into handguns expect the same results.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brav01 View Post
    It's not the ATF you have to thank ; It's a couple small companies that turn AR rifle platforms into BATF legal handguns. Once the guns are on the market the ammo available becomes subject to the law that prohibits armor piercing ammo for handguns. They did this in 1994 to the 7.62x39 doubling the market price of ammo overnight, as most ammo was imported from the Com-Bloc; and later when the 5.7x28 HK hit the streets. They almost outlawed ALL 50 BMG in 1995 when Maddi Griffin premiered 4 prototype bolt action handguns at the Shot Show. But, the 50 Caliber Shooters Association got Maddi to withdraw it's entry as it would have put Maddi out of business, they only built 50 BMG rifles at that time; ALL 50 BMG is armor piercing out of a handgun.
    If any other calibers are incorporated into handguns expect the same results.
    Don't forget the April 2014 BATFE import ban on 7n6 ammo (5.45x39mm).

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    AR pistols have been around for decades.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brav01 View Post
    It's not the ATF you have to thank ; It's a couple small companies that turn AR rifle platforms into BATF legal handguns. Once the guns are on the market the ammo available becomes subject to the law that prohibits armor piercing ammo for handguns. They did this in 1994 to the 7.62x39 doubling the market price of ammo overnight, as most ammo was imported from the Com-Bloc; and later when the 5.7x28 HK hit the streets. They almost outlawed ALL 50 BMG in 1995 when Maddi Griffin premiered 4 prototype bolt action handguns at the Shot Show. But, the 50 Caliber Shooters Association got Maddi to withdraw it's entry as it would have put Maddi out of business, they only built 50 BMG rifles at that time; ALL 50 BMG is armor piercing out of a handgun.
    If any other calibers are incorporated into handguns expect the same results.
    But the M855 PROJECTILE does not meet the definition of armor piercing! There's just no getting around that fact.


    Specifically, the definition of “armor piercing ammunition” in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(B) provides:
    (B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
    (i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun andwhich is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of othersubstances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron,brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium; or
    (ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intendedfor use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25percent of the total weight of the projectile.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snyd View Post
    But the M855 PROJECTILE does not meet the definition of armor piercing! There's just no getting around that fact.


    Specifically, the definition of “armor piercing ammunition” in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(B) provides:
    (B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
    (i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun andwhich is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of othersubstances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron,brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium; or
    (ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intendedfor use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25percent of the total weight of the projectile.
    The government DOESN'T deal in facts; remember Bengazi, Obamacare, WMD in IRAQ, ISIS isn't a terrorist organization and more. Regardless of what the legal definition of "Armor Piercing" is; the DOJ determines/enforces what is allowed to be imported and sold over the counter in the USA. M855-Green Tip ammo is going the way of the DoDo for civilian use, once supplies dry up. I don't like but I don't have much choice either...!
    " Americans will never need the 2nd Amendment, until the government tries to take it away."

    On the road of life..... Pot holes keep things interesting !

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snyd View Post
    But the M855 PROJECTILE does not meet the definition of armor piercing! There's just no getting around that fact.


    Specifically, the definition of “armor piercing ammunition” in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(B) provides:
    (B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
    (i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun andwhich is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of othersubstances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron,brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium; or
    (ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intendedfor use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25percent of the total weight of the projectile.
    In spite of the exact wording of the definition in 18 USC, I think it's going to be a pretty tough position to defend in court, especially if the court is willing to delve beyond the absolute letter of the definition set forth in 18 USC and entertain any evidence as to the intent of the 99th Congress when they wrote the law in 1985, as reading the hearing committee notes leaves no doubt whatsoever what their intent was. The definitions of armor piercing they subsequently set forth were based on known armor piercing bullet construction at the time, and M855 was not yet in circulation (it wasn't patented until '86). The patent notes for M855 very specifically state that the intended design purpose of the steel core is to make it armor penetrating: "An improved small caliber steel tipped lead projectile intended to penetrate armor..."; and the mil spec for it requires that it "shall demonstrate complete penetration of 10 gage(sic) (.135 inch) thickness AISI 1010 to 1020 steel plate target with hardness between RB 55 minimum and RB 70 maximum, (NATO plate) positioned at O +/- 50 obliquity and located 656 yards (600 meters) from the weapon". I wouldn't want to be the lawyer who had to stand in front of the court, hold up a duck and try to claim with a straight face that it wasn't really a duck, because the definition in the law said that it had to have a yellow beak instead of an orange bill in order to be a duck. I'd be surprised if even the likes of Gerry Spence could pull that one off.
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    Fast forward ten more years. All heavy metals are banned due to "armour piercing" and the EPA comes down and eliminates all lead bullets. Game over, give an inch and they will take a mile.
    "I'd rather be fishing!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    In spite of the exact wording of the definition in 18 USC, I think it's going to be a pretty tough position to defend in court, especially if the court is willing to delve beyond the absolute letter of the definition set forth in 18 USC and entertain any evidence as to the intent of the 99th Congress when they wrote the law in 1985, as reading the hearing committee notes leaves no doubt whatsoever what their intent was. The definitions of armor piercing they subsequently set forth were based on known armor piercing bullet construction at the time, and M855 was not yet in circulation (it wasn't patented until '86). The patent notes for M855 very specifically state that the intended design purpose of the steel core is to make it armor penetrating: "An improved small caliber steel tipped lead projectile intended to penetrate armor..."; and the mil spec for it requires that it "shall demonstrate complete penetration of 10 gage(sic) (.135 inch) thickness AISI 1010 to 1020 steel plate target with hardness between RB 55 minimum and RB 70 maximum, (NATO plate) positioned at O +/- 50 obliquity and located 656 yards (600 meters) from the weapon". I wouldn't want to be the lawyer who had to stand in front of the court, hold up a duck and try to claim with a straight face that it wasn't really a duck, because the definition in the law said that it had to have a yellow beak instead of an orange bill in order to be a duck. I'd be surprised if even the likes of Gerry Spence could pull that one off.
    Most anything can be "a pretty tough position to defend in court" when the court is bought and paid for.

    Since when, has our gun rights been upheld by a court, except when the issue is overwhelming, and they are shamed into it?

    So are we to give up, because of the courts? The Legislative is EQUAL to the Judicial and the Executive. It's 2 to 1 now, but that can change. There is no justification for banning Armor Piercing to begin with.

    Smitty of the North

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    There is no justification for banning Armor Piercing to begin with.
    Perhaps not, but 30 years ago a whole bunch of congressmen and cops apparently thought otherwise. Maybe some current or future congressman can be convinced to change the law...
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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    Quote Originally Posted by brav01 View Post
    It's not the ATF you have to thank ; It's a couple small companies that turn AR rifle platforms into BATF legal handguns. Once the guns are on the market the ammo available becomes subject to the law that prohibits armor piercing ammo for handguns. They did this in 1994 to the 7.62x39 doubling the market price of ammo overnight, as most ammo was imported from the Com-Bloc; and later when the 5.7x28 HK hit the streets. They almost outlawed ALL 50 BMG in 1995 when Maddi Griffin premiered 4 prototype bolt action handguns at the Shot Show. But, the 50 Caliber Shooters Association got Maddi to withdraw it's entry as it would have put Maddi out of business, they only built 50 BMG rifles at that time; ALL 50 BMG is armor piercing out of a handgun.
    If any other calibers are incorporated into handguns expect the same results.
    It IS the ATF we have to "blame", for making unavailable what the consumer WANTS available, and manufacturers have made available.

    It's not something they HAFTA do. They wouldn't do it if they weren't encouraged to. They accomplish nothing other than harassment in doing so.

    YUP, they're to blame four shore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    Maybe some current or future congressman can be convinced to change the law...
    Even the one you called an "IDIOT"????

    Surely, MOST of the laws that restrict our gun rights should be changed or repealed.

    Smitty of the North
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    Even the one you called an "IDIOT"????
    Yup. As I said, I wish he would propose some serious legislation to amend or repeal 18 USC, rather than acting a buffoon and wasting time and tax dollars proposing frivolous legislation.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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