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Thread: Video on ammo torture

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    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
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    Default Video on ammo torture

    The next time some weasel tells you that we need to pay HAZ-MAT fees for Alaska
    and that a 1000 foot container ship can only bring one pallet of ammo. Think of this video which disproved the MYTH that ammo is dangerous by itself.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SlOXowwC4c#t=239
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    They sure wasted a lot of ammo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Float Pilot View Post
    The next time some weasel tells you that we need to pay HAZ-MAT fees for Alaska
    and that a 1000 foot container ship can only bring one pallet of ammo. Think of this video which disproved the MYTH that ammo is dangerous by itself.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SlOXowwC4c#t=239
    A very informative video. Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenmm View Post
    They sure wasted a lot of ammo
    No wonder, there is an ammo shortage.

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    That was excellent...thanks for sharing it Float Pilot. Sure looks like they did a pretty thorough job of objective testing across numerous possible scenarios.

    Speaking just for myself, it sure seems that data and objective reality is always competing with supposition and fear, but unfortunately it does not always lead to sensible conclusions by us or our policy makers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Float Pilot View Post
    The next time some weasel tells you that we need to pay HAZ-MAT fees for Alaska
    and that a 1000 foot container ship can only bring one pallet of ammo. Think of this video which disproved the MYTH that ammo is dangerous by itself.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SlOXowwC4c#t=239
    The video does make the HAZ-MAT seem to be unnecessary for ammo.

    Smokeless powder is VERY hard to ignite, but when it burns as in the Bonfire, it's burn is very HOT. I suppose, they could make something of that.

    Still, modern ammo is not an explosive. IMO, it's not like dynamite and Black Powder, and shipping shouldn't be regulated to the same extent. These rules were probably passed without much attention to reality, like most restrictions on firearms and ammo.

    How wonderful it would be, if we could ship ammo by US Mail, and other carriers without all the Hassle.

    FAT CHANCE of getting it changed, I suppose, but who knows? I would not have thought that CC would be possible. Someone proposed it in AK, way back in the 70s, and most of the legislators and authorities shot it down almost immediately, IIRC.

    Thanks for posting that.
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    This video would be a great starting point/tool for a motivated AK legislator to use as foundation for challenging the current federal classification on ammo.

    Plus it was very cool to watch.

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    My eldest son is the XO of one of those large cargo ships that TOTE brings into Anchorage from Tacoma. The darn thing is a wee bit over 840 feet long and 118 feet wide.
    I was talking to him about the HAZ-MAT restrictions on ammo and certain chemicals used for BLUEING. He responded about how ridiculous that was because they roll on 50 or 60 cars into that same ship with quarter tanks of gasoline. In fact they can bring up over 200 cars on some occasions, plus another 600 semi-truck containers full of Lord knows what.
    All sorts of things that are much more dangerous than ammo or blueing salts. He agreed that it is all politically driven BS.
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    This shows our legislators are still living in the Black-Powder age and believing the hokum the shipping companies pump up their ***** hole, Or that shippers dollars signs are talking louder than common sense.
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    Good vid.

    I found it interesting that of the two sig cartridges which ignited in the initial drop test, one of them clearly displayed that the primer was completely undamaged and unmarked in any way. It would be interesting to understand the physics that resulted in the propellent being ignited, apparently without the primer being struck.

    As far as shipping classification goes, smokeless powder is classified as Class-4 Flammable Solid. Do you guys think that classification is inappropriate? If so, can you explain exactly why, and explain what would be a more appropriate classification, and why?.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    As far as shipping classification goes, smokeless powder is classified as Class-4 Flammable Solid. Do you guys think that classification is inappropriate? If so, can you explain exactly why, and explain what would be a more appropriate classification, and why?.
    I don't hear anyone second guessing the classification of the components, I do hear second guessing the shipping limitations on the final product.

    I'm no expert on the topic, but it sure seems odd that gas in the cars is considered less dangerous than ammo.


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    Quote Originally Posted by limon32 View Post
    I don't hear anyone second guessing the classification of the components, I do hear second guessing the shipping limitations on the final product.

    I'm no expert on the topic, but it sure seems odd that gas in the cars is considered less dangerous than ammo.
    I'm not qualified to speak on the logic behind differing handling requirements for differing quantities and configurations of Class-4 Flammable Solids vs. Class-3 Flammable Liquids. I'd be surprised to hear a Class-3 Liquid classified as "less dangerous" than a Class-4 Solid tho.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    I'm not qualified to speak on the logic behind differing handling requirements for differing quantities and configurations of Class-4 Flammable Solids vs. Class-3 Flammable Liquids. I'd be surprised to hear a Class-3 Liquid classified as "less dangerous" than a Class-4 Solid tho.
    Doesn't that Lea to the question posed by a previous poster?


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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    As far as shipping classification goes, smokeless powder is classified as Class-4 Flammable Solid. Do you guys think that classification is inappropriate? If so, can you explain exactly why, and explain what would be a more appropriate classification, and why?.
    Do I think the classification is inappropriate? No the classification is fine, but I feel the added HAZMAT fee is excessive for the level of extra handling/care required for ammo. As I said, that is just how I feel about it, based on my personal experience handling ammo, watching videos such as the one Float Pilot posted on this thread, and my experience working in logistics. My perception on the HAZMAT fees is that they are based on unfounded fear of the material instead of any practical working experience with ammo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
    Do I think the classification is inappropriate? No the classification is fine, but I feel the added HAZMAT fee is excessive for the level of extra handling/care required for ammo.
    Can't argue with that. Who determines and profits from those fees?
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    That was very disturbing. I can not find all the brass I need and they do this. It's like making a drunk watch you pour out the spirits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    Who determines and profits from those fees?
    Great questions! Which I personally would like to see our representatives asking. I do not know the answer, I have my guesses, but do not know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cast Iron View Post
    That was very disturbing. I can not find all the brass I need and they do this. It's like making a drunk watch you pour out the spirits.
    Disturbing from a personal point of view yes. But on a smaller personal level how many of us have experimented in one way or another to see the limits of ammo? Ever do penetration tests on wood, cardboard, or phone books? Ever do burn rates on various powders? Ever do....? Yeah I was momentarily disturbed by the volume of destruction in their tests, but that was quickly replaced by envy. They got paid to do that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
    I do not know the answer, I have my guesses, but do not know.
    Sorry, my question was more or less rhetorical. The answer is: the shippers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
    My perception on the HAZMAT fees is that they are based on unfounded fear of the material instead of any practical working experience with ammo.
    I don't think it's necessarily based on fear of the material. I think it's just padding fees wherever possible to increase profits. The fee is ostensibly to cover the costs of required paperwork, labeling, packaging, handling, employee training, etc. All justifiable expenses; but expenses that likely don't add up to the amount being charged. Just like it doesn't cost my bank $5 if I let my checking account balance fall below the minimum balance either, but that's what they charge me if I do. It's just an arbitrary excuse to charge a fee and pad profits. Unfortunately, most of the time it's not illegal in our beloved free market economy. Of course, you could look to eliminate or alleviate the necessity of those additional costs, by trying to get DOT to change the classification, and thus the additional packaging, labeling, training, etc... Or more specifically, get Congress to change the laws pertaining how a certain classified material needs to be handled. (DOT has already acknowledged that loaded ammo presents a limited hazard and classified it ORM-D accordingly, but the underlying laws regarding shipping/handling are still pretty onerous).
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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    Bingo IO.

    You hit the nail on the head. Of all the free market things the government should have its hands in, is the interstate transportation fees. If the fee makes an item cost excessively more in one state based on its market value nationally, then maybe our representatives should relook the fee. You know don't we have an Interstate commerce commission for things like that?

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