Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: ETR7 From Expansion Industries

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Between mentally adjudicated and cybersapce
    Posts
    555

    Default ETR7 From Expansion Industries

    http://www.expansion-industries.com/...DER-p/etr7.htm

    Do any of you more experienced hand loaders have any personal experience with this powder or company? I recently ran across the name brand the other day. I will be traveling through Virginia this summer and may swing in and pick some up.

    I would like to learn more about them first.

    Thanks,
    Ralph

  2. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Between mentally adjudicated and cybersapce
    Posts
    555

    Default

    Well I decided to order a 4lb jug. It should be here in 2-3 business days. Then I get to start developing some 45c loads with it.

    I'll let ya'll know my results.

  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Palmer Alaska
    Posts
    223

    Default

    Thanks for the post.... Im interested to know, what powder manufacture is mixing it? It would almost have to be one of the bigger plants I would think, but maybe not. Im not aware of but a few companies That actually make powder like IMR... Hodgdon and Alliant and Western Powders. heck even some of those big name powders are made in the same plant. I always assumed it was due to permitting and environmental issues... Not really worth while to have a small plant. if you hear anything please let me know I'm always interested in learning about new stuff.

  4. #4
    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Tanana Valley AK
    Posts
    6,716

    Default

    A week ago, my unspoken response to the OP was "never heard of it"... Did a little digging this evening; word on the internet is that it's made by Maxam, which is a very large Spanish munitions company. They opened a shotshell plant (RIO) in Huston TX a few years ago. Expansion Industries is a small ammo manufacturer in VA. Sounds like Expansion Industries is getting their powder from Maxam/RIO and rebranding it as ETR7, so it's going to be one of these: http://www.shooterspagetx.com/rio/components_powders.htm I have an idea which one, but it's only a wag.
    He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It

  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Chugiak
    Posts
    2,996

    Default

    I have about 40 different powders and I have never heard of it either but there is lots of stuff I've never heard of. By their load data it appears that it would work well in a 45Colt. Start with a light 45acp load and work your way up.

  6. #6

    Default

    I live within 150 miles of where this company is located and have been reloading over 40 years. I had never heard of them until you brought them up in this thread.

  7. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Between mentally adjudicated and cybersapce
    Posts
    555

    Default

    The ETR7 arrived the middle of last week. It arrived 4 business days after I ordered it right to the door. I was pretty busy last week and didn't have an opportunity until today to open the package and start working with the powder.

    1. The first thing I noticed was the ETR7 is not a black powder like most I have used in the past, it is gray/brown/tan in color.

    2. It is a flake type powder that is between unique and STEEL in size, larger disk sized flakes that Unique, and smaller than STEEL.

    3. Since this is a new powder to me and I have not been able to get much load data on it. I spent a few hours measuring the powder with the various measuring devices I have, weighing my powder measurements on my Lyman digital scale.

    For each Lee scoop size/volume of measure I used I ran two sets of ten. I used 6 sizes of the yellow Lee bulk powder scoop: 2.8cc, 1.6cc, 1.0cc, .7cc, .5cc, and .3cc, I also used the Lee powder funnel and my RCBS UNIFLOW.

    Lee dipper scoops results were:
    2.8cc average weight per scoop was 23.95 gr, Low was 23.2gr / High was 24.3gr, with an ES of 1.1
    1.6cc average weight per scoop was 13.39 gr, Low was 13.1gr / High was 13.7gr, with an ES of .6
    1.0cc average weight per scoop was 8.32 gr, Low was 8.1 gr / High was 8.6gr, with an ES of .5
    .7cc average weight per scoop was 5.62 gr, Low was 5.4 gr / High was 5.8gr, with an ES of .4
    .5cc average weight per scoop was 3.9 gr, Low was 3.8 gr / High was 4.1gr, with an ES of .3
    .3CC average weight per scoop was 2.38gr, Low was 2.3gr / High was 2.5gr, with an ES of .2

    Then I ran a weighed 1/4 pound of ETR-7 through my Lee powder funnel. During this test I adjusted the throw three times.

    For each run through I ran five throws before weighing to allow the funnel/powder to settle after adjusting the throw. I have found with the Lee funnel that after adjusting the throw the first several throws are irregular.

    The first two sets of ten the hopper measure was set at 10.0gr. The average throw was 10.07gr, Low was 9.9gr / High was 10.2gr, with an ES of .3

    The second two sets of ten the hopper measure was set at 6.5gr. The average was 6.49gr, Low was 6.4gr / High was 6.7gr, with an ES of .3

    The last two sets through I set the hopper measure to at 4.2gr. The average was 4.21gr, Low was 4.1 / High was 4.3gr, with an ES of .2

    My last set of measurements was with my RCBS UNIFLOW. I ran the same 1/4 powder weight through the powder measure, and do not have a powder baffle in it. (note as the powder emptied out I began getting lighter throws.)

    I ran a weighed 1/4 pound (1750gr) of powder through twice, the first run was set at 10gr. The first 100 throws were all 10.0gr, the next 75 throws varied from 10 to 9.6, with an average of 9.9. As the powder in the hopper diminished my throws began to vary lighter. I assume this was due to less powder weight pushing powder into the measuring tube.

    The second time through the UNIFLOW my powder measure was set at 5.0gr. The first 300 throws were very consistent with most at 5.0gr. Again as the powder weight in the hopper began to reduce the throws started to change. My lightest throw was 4.8gr.

    In both tests I found that if the powder in my hopper fell below 3/4 of in inch from the both of the hopper the throws began to vary.

    I like the way this powder meters through both the Lee and UNIFLOW powder measures, but like most handgun rounds I found it harder to meter throws under 5gr. Maybe I just need to get better gear, I am interested in the Mircometer adjustment screw for the UNIFLOW. I think it will solve this issue for me. As it is I normally use the Lee scoops and a manual trickle charger for the loads under 5gr and weigh each one.


    4. The Expansion Industries site has recommended loads for several calibers, but not 45 colt. So I decide to use their data for 38 SPC for my first loads with this powder.

    5. They recommend a min load of 3.0 grain and maximum load of 3.4 grains for the 38 SPC with a 158gr bullet. I loaded 10 rounds at 3.0, 10 rounds at 3.2, and 10 rounds at 3.4. Using my .3cc lee scoop to load 2.4 +/- gr onto my scale pan and then trickled in more powder until my desired weight was met.

    Bullet was 158 LSWC
    Primer Remington 1 1/2 SPP
    Brass 1 x fired PMC

    6. I suspect these rounds to range between 700-800 FPS based on the manufactures data, and a couple posts I found online about this powders. I will post my findings once I get a chance to chronograph these at the range, probably next weekend.

  8. #8
    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Tanana Valley AK
    Posts
    6,716

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
    ...it is gray/brown/tan in color.
    Does it look like CSB 1 or CSB 5?
    He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It

  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Between mentally adjudicated and cybersapce
    Posts
    555

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rbuck351 View Post
    By their load data it appears that it would work well in a 45Colt. Start with a light 45acp load and work your way up.
    Thanks Rbuck.

    That is what I was thinking also. Their data for 45 ACP is showing between 4.5gr and 5.4gr for 230 gr LRN and 5.1gr and 5.6 gr for 230gr FMJ.

    I plan on starting with the 45 ACP loads and working my way up from there incrementally. I should be able to develop a load that will push anything from 250-300gr around 900-1000 FPS safely. I have found, with my 4 5/8 black hawk, that as long as I keep my loads in that velocity range my sights are dialed in as close as I can keep them regardless of bullet weight out to 25 yards.

    With the data above in mind I plan on starting my 45 colt loads around 5gr with a 250gr HC LSWC. The company website states this powder loads very similar to Titegroup. Yet, the reviews I have read online have said loads tested with it have been slower than similar loads with Titegroup with the same types of pressure signs.

    My current loads with Titegroup are 250 HC LSWC: w/ 7gr at 920fps, w/7.8gr at 970FPS, and w/8.5gr at 1040fps. I am hoping to be able to work loads up to 8gr and achieve the 900-1000 fps range.

  10. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Between mentally adjudicated and cybersapce
    Posts
    555

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    Does it look like CSB 1 or CSB 5?


    IO,

    I have not used any of the CSB powders personally, but at this site, the CSB 1 looks like the ETR-7 I have.

    http://www.shooterspagetx.com/rio/co...ts_powders.htm

  11. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Between mentally adjudicated and cybersapce
    Posts
    555

    Default

    IO,

    Here is a picture comparing Unique, ETR-7 and STEEL
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20150307_145013_resized.jpg  

  12. #12
    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Tanana Valley AK
    Posts
    6,716

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
    IO,

    I have not used any of the CSB powders personally, but at this site, the CSB 1 looks like the ETR-7 I have.

    http://www.shooterspagetx.com/rio/co...ts_powders.htm
    CSB 1 was my guess. IF it's CSB 1, you SHOULD be able to use Universal/Unique load data. (Remember you heard this from some anonymous guy on the internet).
    He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It

  13. #13
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Between mentally adjudicated and cybersapce
    Posts
    555

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    CSB 1 was my guess. IF it's CSB 1, you SHOULD be able to use Universal/Unique load data. (Remember you heard this from some anonymous guy on the internet).
    Thanks IO,

    That is along the lines of what I was thinking also, and of course if its on the internet its gospel, right? Just to be safe I plan on starting low. The 5gr mentioned before is in the middle of the recommended weight for the 45 ACP. That should give me a reference for speed and pressure signs.

  14. #14
    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Tanana Valley AK
    Posts
    6,716

    Default

    How does the attached data compare to what you got from Expansion Industries? *I found this on the net and can not validate it's origin or accuracy, and I won't leave it posted indefinitely (simply because of allowable storage space), so grab it if it's of interest to you.
    He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It

  15. #15
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Between mentally adjudicated and cybersapce
    Posts
    555

    Default

    IO,

    The CSB-1 load data chart is similar to what Expansion Industries (EI) has posted on their website. A quick comparison of the two charts seems the EI starting loads are comparable to those listed in the CSB-1 chart. I have saved and printed a copy to add to my reference's.

    Thanks,
    Ralph

  16. #16
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Between mentally adjudicated and cybersapce
    Posts
    555

    Default

    Made it out to the range here today. The weather was anice 49 degrees with a southernly wind ranging from 15-20 mph. That would beleft to right across the range. I had loaded up the ETR-7 powder in the 38 SPCand 45 Colt to run over my chrony.

    While researching this powder I compared the load lists provided on theExpansion Industries (EI) website to the load data in several of my loadingmanuals. I compared the caliber, bullet weight, bullet type, and min/maxloads of the EI data. In the Hodgdon's 2013 Annual Manual Reloading(magazine) I found 14 loads using Universal that matched caliber, bulletweight, bullet type and min/max loads for ETR-7 from EI. I loaded the 38SPC using the recommended min/max from EI. Then I used the Hodgdon's 2013list for Universal as a guide for the 45 colt rounds, since EI offered no loadsfor this caliber.

    The loads were:

    In the 38 SPC: 158gr LSWC with 3.0, 3.2, and 3.4gr of ETR-7 as well as 158grLSWC with 4.4gr of unique.
    In the 45c: 247gr LSWC with 6.5gr, 7.0, 7.5 (w/JFP), 8.0gr, 8.2gr, and 8.4grall with the ETR-7.

    The weapons were:
    Ruger Blackhawk with 6" barrel
    Ruger Super Blackhawk with 4 5/8" barrel. (This gun has been tuned andcylinders/cone worked by Hamilton Bowen)

    38 Results with ETR-7, the 3.0-3.4 gr 38 SPC loads with ETR-7 turned out to be"gallery/plinking" class loads.

    3.0gr ETR-7 w 158gr LSWC Hi: 141.8/ Lo: 91.32/ AV 121/ ES 50.4
    3.2gr ETR-7 w 158gr LSWC Hi: 183.9/ Lo: 143.3/ AV 163.6/ ES 40.6
    3.4gr ETR-7 w 158gr LSWC Hi: 212.6/ Lo: 169.9/ AV 196.5/ ES 42.7

    4.4gr Unquie w 158gr LSWC Hi: 339/ Lo: 200.7/ AV 250.8/ ES 139.7 (16 shotstotal with 3 unusually low)
    Not counting the 3 low rounds the 13 shot average changed to- Hi: 339/ Lo:239.8/ AV 261.7/ ES 100. These rounds may have been caused when I was adjustingmy crimp. Could have been too light of crimp.

    All the above 38 SPC rounds were very mild with no to minimum recoil, noflattening of primers, or excessive fouling. Most cases were free of fowlingand fell easily from the cylinder.

    45 Colt rounds: 247gr LSWC with 6.5gr, 7.0, 7.5 (w/JFP), 8.0gr, 8.2gr, and8.4gr all with the ETR-7. The bullets were bought at a gun show as dropped froma 250gr LSWC mold, yet weighed an average of 247gr after lubing.

    The Hodgdon 2013 Annual manual lists between 6.5 and 7.8 gr for a standard(not-ruger only load) for a 250gr cast LRNFP. Speed and pressure should be742/9,200 cup and 941/ 13,000 cup, respectively. The same manual lists a 300grJFP with min/max of 6.6 and 7.3 to range between 593/11,200 cup and 700/13,700cup, respectively.

    The reports I was able to find online stated that ETR-7 was performing about10% less than Universal load data. With that in mind, I worked the loads upfrom the bottom of the recommended Universal 45c loads, and increasing grainincrements until I reached 8.4gr.

    For instance the Hodgdon 2013 load recommended a max of 7.8gr of universal. 7.8x .10= .78, 7.8+.78= 8.58 max of ETR-7 to reach the estimated 941 fps load.

    6.5 gr ETR-7 w 247gr LSWC Hi: 233.2/ Lo: 175.4/ AV 205.4/ ES 57.8
    7.0 gr ETR-7 w 247gr LSWC Hi: 963/ Lo: 950.2/ AV 956.3/ES 12.8
    7.5gr ETR-7 w 300gr JFP Hi: 208.3/ Lo: 186.7/AV 193/ ES 21.6 This load was overthe Hodgdon 2013 load by .2 gr and greatly underperformed to my expected velocities.
    8.0gr ETR-7 w 247gr LSWC Hi: 965/ Lo: 945.2/ AV 957.5/ ES 19.8
    8.2gr ETR-7 w 247gr LSWC Hi: 951.2/ Lo: 946.2/ AV 947/ ES 5 Very odd string!Consistent, yet lower velocities than the 8.0 and 8.4 gr loads.
    8.4gr ETR-7 w 247gr LSWC Hi: 962.9/ Lo: 950.8/ AV 958.8/ ES 12.1

    None of the 45c loads had flattened primers, all primers still had roundededges. Mild to moderate powder fowling on the cases. These cases were muchcleaner than my Titegroup loads. All cases easily came out of the cylinder,although none dropped out on their own, I normally have to push them out withthe cartridge extractor then pull them the rest of the way by hand. Which isnormal for all my 45 rounds both hand loaded and factory.

    While this test was limited in depth of weapons andvolume of rounds, the end results of today's test:


    1. Left me confident in the 8.0 to 8.4 gr weight behind a 250 class cast boolitin the mid 900 fps range. I will work with these gr weights more to furtherdefine the results.

    2. I feel the EI recommended load of 3.0-3.4 gr is too light to maximize thepotential of the 158gr LSWC, I will try the hodgdon 2013 data usingUniversal from 3.5gr to 4.5gr next in the 38 SPC I believe this will performmuch better.

    3. Increasing beyond the Hodgdon's Universal load data up to 10% showedsome truth to the reports I found online about the ETR-7's performance. Theuniversal 7.8gr should have a velocity of 941, with the ETR-7 I reached thatrange using between 8.0 - 8.4 gr.(actually less than 10% increase)

    4. The JFP rounds need further developing, the hodgdon manual has a max ofUniversal of 7.3gr. The ETR-7 using 7.5 gr only pushed the bullet a max of208fps. Something was not right here. Some one help me here, heavier bullets +copper jacket should require more powder than a lighter cast bullet,right? Shouldn't I expect to be able to push this bullet using the same 8.0-8.4gr with less velocity and somewhat more pressure than the before mentioned247gr LSWC?



  17. #17

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
    http://www.expansion-industries.com/...DER-p/etr7.htm

    Do any of you more experienced hand loaders have any personal experience with this powder or company? I recently ran across the name brand the other day. I will be traveling through Virginia this summer and may swing in and pick some up.

    I would like to learn more about them first.

    Thanks,
    Ralph
    BEWARE - BEWARE.... These guys have turned into THIEVES.... Just do a simple search about them... CROOKS....

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •