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Thread: Using an experimental cub for guided hunt??

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    Member avidflyer's Avatar
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    Default Using an experimental cub for guided hunt??

    I was reading a story posted on the hunting forum here and the guide is using an experimental cub to transport the clients.... Just how the bad word can he get away with this? The cub used is N6455S. The two stories I read were basically horror stories about this guide, but the burning question I have is how can the guy be transporting clients and obviously be making money using an experimental cub?

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    Member avidflyer's Avatar
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    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...-Read-and-WEEP

    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...668-Even-worse

    The links to the two stories that will make ya sick.... Guys like this should be under the jail house

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    This Guy? or someone else


    Plane nose breaks through lake ice near Wasilla
    Posted: Monday, April 28, 2008

    WASILLA - Two men in a small plane have survived chilly plunges in a Wasilla area lake after the nose of the aircraft broke through the ice while taxiing for an attempted takeoff.

    Tom Shankster, 52, of Aurora, Colo., and his passenger, Jason Johnson, 37, of Wasilla, jumped from the Piper PA-18 Supercub when the mishap occurred Saturday afternoon on Anderson Lake.

    The men swam across a short stretch of open water and crawled onto the ice.

    Johnson said the worst part came next, when they faced a 100-yard walk across rotten ice back to shore. The men broke through but managed to climb out.

    Neither man was hurt.

    The men were flying to a remote campsite to drop off Johnson, who planned to drive back a snowmachine.

    The plane was equipped with skis, said Shankster, a former Palmer resident who owns the plane and keeps it in Alaska. He said he might have taken off without a problem if he'd gotten the plane up to speed right away, rather than taxiing into position.

    The plane sank up to the wings. Area residents watched it through binoculars as it slowly sank.

    A helicopter from Northern Pioneer Helicopters in Big Lake arrived later to lift the plane from the ice. Shankster said he believed the plane is mostly undamaged.

    N6455S
    Experimental
    Engine Model 0-320 SERIES
    Category Amateur Built
    A/W Date 08/12/2003
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
    Experimental Hand-Loader, NRA Life Member
    http://site.dragonflyaero.com

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    I had the same question avidflyer? However, from the sounds of it he doesn't use it much, leaving all his clients hanging at base camp. This guys shinanigins makes me angry...

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    yes that's the guy. I can't believe he is getting away with that. You can't legally take a picture out of an experimental plane then sell that picture. You can't use it in any way shape form or fashion to make money.. transporting paying clients is obviously using it to make money. He may be able to sneak through the part 135 versus part 91 loop hole up here as far as being a "commercial" operation, but I can't believe the feds would let him get away with using an experimental cub to transport hunter to his own camp or to (sometimes occasionally) move them around the field. It would be a stretch to do nothing but fly supplies in and out of camp with it as its obviously making (at least saving) him money.

    Sounds like a real piece of work...

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    If transportation is not compensated and is incidental to the professional services being provided it isn't a commercial flight.

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Pid View Post
    If transportation is not compensated and is incidental to the professional services being provided it isn't a commercial flight.
    Can transporting a paying hunter into a camp he otherwise wouldn't be able to access, for a hunt he wouldn't otherwise be able to have, be classified as "incidental" to the mission? It would be entertaining to observe that point being argued in court.
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    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
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    It has been. It drives the FAA to tears.
    It also might jack up the operating costs for real commercial pilots flying real 135 operations, due to the insurance averaging of accidents and incidents.
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
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    Quote Originally Posted by avidflyer View Post
    but the burning question I have is how can the guy be transporting clients and obviously be making money using an experimental cub?

    I asked the same question many times when I first came to Alaska. Apparently, the answer is simple: "This is Alaska, we do what we want." Don't ask me how much crap goes on at the big airport. We'll be here all night.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Pid View Post
    If transportation is not compensated and is incidental to the professional services being provided it isn't a commercial flight.
    I understand that part and thats how they get away without being a part 135 operation and conducting the flight part 91... the rules for part 91 are pretty clear about using experimental's to make money in any fashion. If that was the case, why are the fishing guides buying turbine comp 10s instead of caravans at a fraction of the price.

    I think using an experimental plane (probly built better than a certified but that's beside the point) is really stretching the "we get away with anything in AK" loop hole.

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    So is this thread about experimental airplanes or bad hunting guides? The two aren't usually related.

    i believe the rule says E-AB aircraft can't be used for revenue flights. On the other hand, LSA airplanes can't be used for any transportation to or from any activity where the pilot is compensated. Like commuting to work. Also legally tested. So there are two different rules for two different categories of airplanes.

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    Anyone here who can tell me what is included in a pilot's "compensation"? And is it the airplane's owner or its pilot who looks to be "compensated" . . . ?

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    According to FSDO a AK hunting guide that flys his client from camp to a hunting spot is considered "incidental" to the whole commercial operation. It's 10 to 20 minutes of several days time. FSDO said it only applies to AK guides that fly their clients.

    FSDO also said that in this case the plane has to be clearly marked as experimental and all passengers have to be briefed before getting in the plane. If they refuse to fly its up to them and the guide/pilot to work it out.

    FSDO would like to talk to Shankster's clients to make sure those briefings are happening. No enforcement action, just educate him of the requirements.


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    Quote Originally Posted by AK Ray View Post
    According to FSDO a AK hunting guide that flys his client from camp to a hunting spot is considered "incidental" to the whole commercial operation. It's 10 to 20 minutes of several days time. FSDO said it only applies to AK guides that fly their clients.

    FSDO also said that in this case the plane has to be clearly marked as experimental and all passengers have to be briefed before getting in the plane. If they refuse to fly its up to them and the guide/pilot to work it out.

    FSDO would like to talk to Shankster's clients to make sure those briefings are happening. No enforcement action, just educate him of the requirements.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Having flown and guided Alaska for more than 35 years, I understand that. I'm asking what "compensation" may mean. For example, when a private pilot asks a passenger to share "costs" of a flight, and that may include a pro rate share of the purchase or replacement cost, fuel and oil, insurance, tiedown, maintenance, etc . . . . . is that also "compensation"?

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    U said u already know, then u asked again.
    Might need to clarify what u are getting at. Confusing.

    Compensation means:
    : to give money or something else of value to (someone) in return for something (such as work) or as payment for something lost, damaged, etc.

    That means ANYTHING pretty much and citations have been issued as such.
    ANYTHING means trading for a cup of joe or mowing your yard for u. Easy- ask "was I compensated in any way"

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    Member AK Ray's Avatar
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    Default Using an experimental cub for guided hunt??

    Grizzly 2, I was not trying to answer your question, and I have no answer to it. But FSDO may have one. They've always answered mine when I've called.


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    The guy is taking you hunting, not charging you for transportation. This is what incidental means....He can use whatever to get you there. He is just getting you to his camp. His business is taking you out on a guided hunt, not flying you....The flying part is incidental to the guided hunt...This has been beat up on for years...(along with the type of pilots license he needs)....

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    I know the part 91 versus 135 operations argument has been beat to death.. I just found it interesting to put the experimental plane into the mix. Funny that I can't take a picture out of my plane and sell it for 25 bucks but a guide can get 15k and fly his experimental out on the hunt, transport the clients etc. If this is the case, I should be able to go buy a comp 10 for 250K and fly clients out fishing instead of dropping real money on a caravan.

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    If the Alaska Registered Guide and the pilot are the same guy, and the costs of the flying are included in the guide's fee for the hunt, he's pretty well home free. If the guide and the pilot are two different individuals, the situation is different, since the trip is NOT​ incidental to the hunt simply because that pilot has provided transportation. Beyond that, he will also require a Transporter Permit and fill out all the applicable forms (if the Transporter Law is still in effect . . . ). My question didn't relate to "barter", as spelled out by AL-HUNT. It only asks what COSTS may be legally included in "compensation". And remember that federal income taxes must be declared on the value of the bartered items.

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