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Thread: Second-Degree of Kindred......."QUESTIONS" and Discussion.

  1. #1

    Default Second-Degree of Kindred......."QUESTIONS" and Discussion.

    What was the original intent......???

    How old must the Alaska Resident be to act as as Second-Degree of Kindred......???

    When did this first come into legal practice in Alaska.......???

    Is there any remote assumption that the Resident acting as Second-Degree of Kindred for hunting, knows anything about Game Animals, Equipment, First Aid, Any grasp of hunting Regulations, etc........???
    __________________________________________________ __________

    Page 10 of the published regulations, speaks (very) sparsely to this subject.

    Can we start with facts and definitions and legality FIRST, before opinions as to the GOOD, BAD, UGLY.

    Thank You.........

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    Member SkinnyD's Avatar
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    You just said the definition is on page 10 in the regulations. I can't imagine that anyone here, except yourself, can provide a better one.

    As for the speculation, I speculate that it was a handout to resident hunters who wanted to be able to share Alaska with their family back home. The word "handout" gets a bad rap, but in this case I figure it was a good thing. I would also speculate that the guides were against it, which makes it even more likely that it was a rule created to support resident hunters.
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    Maybe this is one of those things that needs to be brought up every 3 months? lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milo View Post
    Again?

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    Thanks ...........However that largely only dealt with AGE......It seems that there is maybe some question about restricting Non-Residents hunters for Sheep.

    What I would like some clarity on is on the harvest numbers, How is this reflected.....??? The resident acting as "FDK" is required to have a hunting Lic. We "Might" assume that in most or a few cases the resident hunter would also pick-up a free sheep harvest ticket. If only the Non-resident harvests harvests a sheep then that is reflected as to show a higher success rate for Non-resident hunters.

    However if the resident with a sheep harvest ticket reports they hunted, but did NOT harvest a sheep, that helps to reflect a lower success rate for Resident hunters. It could be assumed that the PRIMARY objective was for the Non-Resident to harvest a sheep first, or maybe the goal was that Only the Non-resident intended to harvest. I say this distorts any decisions made based on harvest success of Resident "And" Non-resident totals.

    I wonder if there should be a special column of numbers reflecting "First Degree Kindred" success. (And maybe there is, I don't know). Or maybe on the totals it assumed that all non-residents are under a contract for guiding services.

    I further wonder if in a first degree kindred hunt, if the resident should be restricted from harvesting while afield with a non-resident.....??? I don't have a feeling about this, but if your looking for ways to reduce sheep harvested...????


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    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    Thanks ...........However that largely only dealt with AGE......It seems that there is maybe some question about restricting Non-Residents hunters for Sheep.

    What I would like some clarity on is on the harvest numbers, How is this reflected.....??? The resident is required to have a hunting Lic. We "Might" assume that in most or a few cases the resident hunter would also pick-up a free sheep harvest ticket. If only the Non-resident harvests harvests a sheep then that is reflected as to show a higher success rate for Non-resident hunters.

    However if the resident with the sheep harvest ticket reports they hunted, but did NOT harvest a sheep, that helps to reflect a lower success rate for Resident hunters. It could be assumed that the PRIMARY objective was for the Non-Resident to harvest a sheep first, or maybe the goal was that Only the Non-resident intended to harvest. I say this distorts any decisions made based on harvest success of Resident "And" Non-resident totals.

    I wonder if there should be a special column of numbers reflecting "First Degree Kindred" success. (And maybe there is, I don't know).

    I further wonder if in a first degree kindred hunt, if the resident should be restricted from harvesting while afield with a non-resident.....??? I don't have a feeling about this, but if your looking for ways to reduce sheep harvested...????
    I was talking with Joe Want the other day and he said nonresident unguided sheep hunter success was around 50%. Are there nonresident unguided hunters who are NOT covered by the "kindred" standards? The only ones that come to mind are poachers...

    Don't know if that helps or not...

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    I can't help but notice that the comments before yours.....pretty much, reading between the lines......is "Shut-Up" AGL4now, this does not need any discussion, just be quiet. Why....???

    If "Some" Residents loath Hunting Guides for there success rate.......how do they feel about some Second Degree Kindred residents "could have 20 times as much sheep hunting experience as many Asst. Guides........???

    I am NOT down on the second degree kindred thing, I just wonder why it is NOT discussed along with other thoughts effecting Sheep Harvest....???


    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Strahan View Post
    I was talking with Joe Want the other day and he said nonresident unguided sheep hunter success was around 50%. Are there nonresident unguided hunters who are NOT covered by the "kindred" standards? The only ones that come to mind are poachers...

    Don't know if that helps or not...

    -Mike
    Last edited by Michael Strahan; 01-30-2015 at 19:08. Reason: I quoted the wrong guy!

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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    Is there any remote assumption that the Resident acting as Second-Degree of Kindred for hunting, knows anything about Game Animals, Equipment, First Aid, Any grasp of hunting Regulations, etc........???
    I'm not a lawyer, cop, or F&G employee, but I would say no. This is not required for any hunter except those that are younger and required to take hunters ed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    However if the resident with a sheep harvest ticket reports they hunted, but did NOT harvest a sheep, that helps to reflect a lower success rate for Resident hunters. It could be assumed that the PRIMARY objective was for the Non-Resident to harvest a sheep first, or maybe the goal was that Only the Non-resident intended to harvest. I say this distorts any decisions made based on harvest success of Resident "And" Non-resident totals.

    I wonder if there should be a special column of numbers reflecting "First Degree Kindred" success. (And maybe there is, I don't know). Or maybe on the totals it assumed that all non-residents are under a contract for guiding services.
    I see all kinds of problems in the data available to us via the F&G website. Everything from totally unbelievable horn or antler sizes (like a 99" moose, or a 26 year old sheep, etc.) to dates of kill that are outside of hunting season, etc. Look at what you report when you kill something. The most basic information you can imagine, and that is what F&G is trying to work out. Trying to glean more meaningful data from what we turn in would be next to impossible.

    I for one am one of the guys (I'm sure almost everyone does this to some degree) that will get a harvest ticket for every species I might see. When I go caribou hunting, I'll get tags for everything in season for the unit I'm going to, passing by, etc. I only have intention to hunt caribou, but I might have a moose tag, black bear tag, sheep tag, etc. in my pocket. When I report on these, I could say I "hunted" (maybe not very hard), for all of those species. This will in turn lower the actual success rates for residents. Do non-residents do this? Not likely. Not when they have to pay for their tags.

    As to the PRIMARY objective when hunting with a relative. When I do this, sure, my first objective would be to get my relative onto a sheep (or whatever), but I'm still hunting too. In fact when we hunt sheep, I'll have a caribou tag, a moose tag, a black bear tag....

    I think the 2nd degree of kindred hunts are great for my close family that live out of state. I'm not sure what the numbers are, but I'm sure they are less than guided non-residents or residents. Probably a fraction of those.

  11. #11

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    I notice that I keep calling it "First Degree Kindred" and it is second degree.........However I think that for many many years it was First Degree and at some point changed to Second degree. I would like to know the history of this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oakman View Post
    I think the 2nd degree of kindred hunts are great for my close family that live out of state. I'm not sure what the numbers are, but I'm sure they are less than guided non-residents or residents. Probably a fraction of those.
    If I correctly interpret Appendix J of the Dec 2014 Trends in Alaska Sheep Populations, Hunting and Harvests report, 15% of non-residents (49 people per year) didn't use a guide (years 2001-2013), so they must be hunting with 2nd degree kindred.

  13. #13

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    OK....If we go to the thread about sheep harvest issues........One of the points is that Guides are often restricted as to number of Non-resident hunters they are allowed to take afield for sheep (as an example)....However what is the point if a large number of Non-residents are hunting that same location using a relative.

    I remember when guided sheep hunts were around $1,000.-- or two on one for $1,500.-- If now the price is 20X that....then at what point does a non-resident tell his 18 y/o Grandchild "I will give you one thousand dollars a month to go live in Alaska for one year".

    I would like to know the original intent and if the original intent of the regulation has been altered. Example: if this regulation was put into law in say 1955 (just to pick a date) and at that time there were few human residents, and of those few, a large number of them were homesteaders, loggers, surveyors, etc....then is that the same as having your 19 y/o Granddaughter with 12 months in Alaska accompany you afield......???


    Quote Originally Posted by oakman View Post
    I think the 2nd degree of kindred hunts are great for my close family that live out of state. I'm not sure what the numbers are, but I'm sure they are less than guided non-residents or residents. Probably a fraction of those.

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    Of course the resident does not need to know anything about hunting. Plenty of residents know nothing about hunting, may legally harvest their own animal, they may also harvest with a relative.
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    Member Erik in AK's Avatar
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    AGL,
    With regard to the number of non-resident sheep hunters the real issue is total take by guided non-residents, not total number of non-resident hunters. I don't have the numbers but my hunch is that total harvest by 2DK non-res hunters is low, and their success rate is likely only slightly higher than the resident average due to generosity on the part of the resident host/guide i.e. One legal ram seen and the resident gives first shot to his family member.

    As to the notion of per-requisite qualifications to act as a "guide" for a 2DK non-resident? That's a whole 'nother discussion.
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    A lot of "ifs" here. As posted above, we're talking about 49 people per year. So how many of those 49 do you think are hunting with a 19 year old granddaughter that knows nothing about hunting vs a more likely experienced hunter that has lived here for sometime?

  17. #17

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    LOOK.....I don't know. I just feel if there is an effort at reallocation of resource........This issue (2DK) should be "Part" of that discussion process.......

    Quote Originally Posted by oakman View Post
    A lot of "ifs" here. As posted above, we're talking about 49 people per year. So how many of those 49 do you think are hunting with a 19 year old granddaughter that knows nothing about hunting vs a more likely experienced hunter that has lived here for sometime?

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    Member Mkay's Avatar
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    Anecdotal experience. In the last 20 years of hunting in this state I have run into 4 (I think) of the 2d degree kindred folks. Mostly bear hunting. It was always interesting when they said they were from upper NY and I asked them about a guide. They said they were doing the 2d degree thing. Seemed a bit of a scam.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mkay View Post
    Anecdotal experience. In the last 20 years of hunting in this state I have run into 4 (I think) of the 2d degree kindred folks. Mostly bear hunting. It was always interesting when they said they were from upper NY and I asked them about a guide. They said they were doing the 2d degree thing. Seemed a bit of a scam.
    How is that a scam? The only scam is requiring a US citizen to hire a guide in this state. Total scam. Borderline wealth redistribution mandated by the state.

  20. #20

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    The resident host is required to be with-in 100 yards of the non-resident hunter when the shot is fired, which I'll assume there is a reason for, this largely requires the host to be in at the same level of fitness and climbing skills as the non-resident.

    If a sub-legal sheep is harvested does the resident share any responsibility, as a Guide would......???

    If the resident fires back-up shots at a wounded Ram, that turns out to be sub-legal.....should the resident also get a ticket and a fine......???

    Other than saving $20,000.00 what obligations does either party have to the other.......??? You do realize that they may have never ever meet before the hunt (Never, even seen or knew the other existed)........???

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