View Poll Results: What is the best way to improve sheep hunting in Alaska

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  • Limit the number of non-residents hunting sheep

    65 42.76%
  • Raise tags fees for non-residents

    29 19.08%
  • Require a draw permit for all non-residents statewide

    67 44.08%
  • Limit guides in some way, probably through exclusive guide areas as on Federal Land

    40 26.32%
  • Restrictions on the use of aircraft

    29 19.08%
  • Other (comment below)

    7 4.61%
  • Some combination of the choices above (comment below)

    27 17.76%
  • No changes

    4 2.63%
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Thread: Changes to Sheep Hunting

  1. #1
    Member oakman's Avatar
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    Default Changes to Sheep Hunting

    Obviously quite a bit of talk lately on sheep numbers, sheep hunting, improvements, etc.

    I'm curious what changes, if any, would be supported by the members of the forums to improve sheep hunting in Alaska. I'd like to say these ideas are all mine, but....I've just taken these from reading other posts, publications from F&G, etc.

    If you pick, "other" or "some combination of the choices", make sure to discuss in a comment.

    My thought here is not what is good for any particular individual or group of people, but what would benefit the sport of sheep hunting the most. For me, as an Alaskan, I think that the first priority for sheep hunting should go to residents. If there are enough opportunities for other to be involved, then let the non-residents have at it. Personally, I think there are enough sheep to allow for at least a limited number of non-residents to hunt sheep.

    Well, let's hear what you have to say on it.

    Richard

  2. #2
    Member Yellowknife's Avatar
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    The state just paid for a fairly comprehensive survey to get that information. Heavy support for a Non-Res permit system and some support for reduced plane spotting. Heavy opposition to 1 in 3 type format. That's what I'm seeing.






    And for comparative reference, her is what the commercial service (guides, transporters) thought. Surprisingly, they aren't all big fans of a NR draw. But they do thing SOME kind of change should be made.


  3. #3
    Member oakman's Avatar
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    Great stuff Yellowknife. None of that surprises me. I'm obviously not a guide, but I think a lot of the choices in my poll would actually benefit them. By having exclusive guide use areas, they wouldn't have to worry too much about competition from other guides. Obviously there would be people left out, and the competition for the "best areas" would be fierce. Non-residents wouldn't have too much to complain about, if this was set up like Kodiak bear tags, they could have their guide agreement before applying for the tag and be almost assured of a spot. I'm sure almost all of the guides would have all of their spots booked. Enough non-residents would be coming up here to get into all of the spots, even if it wasn't the ideal location.

    Cutting back permits too far on non-residents would obviously be bad for guides and non-res sheep hunters though.

    Should be interesting to see how this all plays out...my money would be on not much of anything changing...too many differing points of view, easier for those involved to just make no decision.

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    The folks that will make the decisions concerning changes have already made comments discrediting the survey results. They did not like the outcome, so they are questioning the data. I would love to hunt sheep in other states,, so I understand why so many will try to protect what they have in the way of OTC sheep hunting here in Alaska.
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  5. #5
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    Interesting that the commercial guys want to limit the NR as well... well the guys that aren't paying anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bambistew View Post
    Interesting that the commercial guys want to limit the NR as well... well the guys that aren't paying anyway.
    Go figure!

    Bambi, are you going to the Wasilla BOG meeting? I met you last year here in Fairbanks. I am coming down to Wasilla Feb 13th after work. Will stay for 2-3 days.

    I say I have no issues with the guiding industry, but after reading the commercial services answers, it is hard for me to say that anymore. Most guides are legally raping this resource....and not just sheep is how I feel now. And I say MOST GUIDES........very few have conservation on their minds. Makes me sick. Then these clowns decide that a one in three years is a good plan..........this without question would be the best for their business. Think of it, us die hard sheep hunters who work hard and take rams every year, most likely the commercial services biggest competition to their operation.........out of the field for 3 years. One of these snakes brought this up at the Fairbanks AC meeting the other night. "How great that would be to hunt sheep like peninsula brown bears" he says. "These are trophy animals" he says, " and should be hunted like other trophy animals, face it we don't hunt sheep for meat" he says. Funny how that would work in his favor. The majority of the guiding industry are a group of thieves who steal our (and our future generations) most valued resources to line their pocket books.

    There are some that are good guys and gals for sure, running reputable operaions, many I know personally, but the majority of these operations are not. If you are one of the few good operations that don't fit into this 74 percent wanting to go to a 1/3 year harvest, (or any other suggestion limiting ALASKA RESIDENTS sheep hunting oppritunities), good on you, you are true conservationist. If you are part of that group wanting to limit mine or any other residents oppritunity, hopefully your "business" and I say that very loosely, fails and you are unemployed ASAP. Your type makes me sick to my stomach. You can never have enough can you, your greed is unbelievable.

    I voted in the above pole to reduce guides exactly as the feds do by going to the old style guide concession. This would fix 90 percent of our issues. Heck.....the APHA advocates for it. It is funny how the BOG proposal number 208 talked about how they would not limit non residents on federal ground because they are already limited. For the most part the best harvest ticket sheep hunts are on federal land. Funny how that works, limit the most greedy, and our sheep hunting improves.

    I truly believe there are only 4 problem areas in Alaska with overcrowding........mostly 20A and 19C. Limit the guides in those areas is really all that will be necessary. But no, they say "there is nothing wrong in our areas", "you residents just need to hike farther"

  7. #7
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    80% of sheep hunters are residents. Limiting guides/non res might leave a few more sheep for residents to shoot but won't do much to solve over crowding issues.
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    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper View Post
    80% of sheep hunters are residents. Limiting guides/non res might leave a few more sheep for residents to shoot but won't do much to solve over crowding issues.
    100 percent untrue statement! Perfect example is areas where guides and consequently non-residents are limited is on federal land, sheep hunting is not a crowded affair at all, especially compared to some of the state land. Say what you want, but unless you are in the backcountry sheep hunting on a yearly basis, you really don't know what you are talking about. The worst crowding in Alaska are in the 20A and 19C areas. Close to 50/50 resident/nonresident hunters in 20A and in 19C 65 percent plus are non resident hunters. Statewide your 80 percent figure is correct. Problem areas, not at all.

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    I was at the Wasilla Fish and Game advisory committee meeting last Wednesday. The trouble with the current study asked how people felt. The AC committees want facts not feelings. They want something factual to base their decisions on not someone's feelings. They stated they wanted science to base decisions on. So they will keep the status quo and study a resource into oblivion.


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    Must be that time of year. I love these threads cause people show their true colors. Love it when people say I don't dislike guides then immediately bash them. Those are the same that say they are for conservation yet fly out every year with their buddies and non resident family for the sole purpose of killing sheep regardless of the health of population in the area.. I don't hat guides. I hate the new breed of guides that don't care about conservation of the species of any animal they hunt. I also actually care about the sheep. If areas are in trouble I don't care who you are you it should be shut down. I care about the future of sheep and if that means drawing hunts then so be it. I do believe areas are getting over run. I do believe in limits of non residents I do not believe in the typical hiprocates that visit these threads

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheephunteralaska View Post
    100 percent untrue statement! Perfect example is areas where guides and consequently non-residents are limited is on federal land, sheep hunting is not a crowded affair at all, especially compared to some of the state land. Say what you want, but unless you are in the backcountry sheep hunting on a yearly basis, you really don't know what you are talking about. The worst crowding in Alaska are in the 20A and 19C areas. Close to 50/50 resident/nonresident hunters in 20A and in 19C 65 percent plus are non resident hunters. Statewide your 80 percent figure is correct. Problem areas, not at all.
    So the inverse is true in the Eastern Brooks? No over-use issues there from transporters/res? I have the opportunity to work with non-res and res and am pretty skeptical of anyone who simply points the finger at the other group. There are areas where both are f-ing it up. Both groups care a lot about the problem and neither is gonna take 100% of the burden nor should they. I'm a resident hunter first, but I do asst guide sometimes (and fly for them) and the outfitters I know are generally awesome steward of the resource. Its easy to say guides are the problem on a resident dominated forum and the inverse is true in a group of guides. That hasn't made much progress thus far.


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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheephunteralaska View Post
    Go figure!

    Bambi, are you going to the Wasilla BOG meeting? I met you last year here in Fairbanks. I am coming down to Wasilla Feb 13th after work. Will stay for 2-3 days.

    I say I have no issues with the guiding industry, but after reading the commercial services answers, it is hard for me to say that anymore. Most guides are legally raping this resource....and not just sheep is how I feel now. And I say MOST GUIDES........very few have conservation on their minds. Makes me sick. Then these clowns decide that a one in three years is a good plan..........this without question would be the best for their business. Think of it, us die hard sheep hunters who work hard and take rams every year, most likely the commercial services biggest competition to their operation.........out of the field for 3 years. One of these snakes brought this up at the Fairbanks AC meeting the other night. "How great that would be to hunt sheep like peninsula brown bears" he says. "These are trophy animals" he says, " and should be hunted like other trophy animals, face it we don't hunt sheep for meat" he says. Funny how that would work in his favor. The majority of the guiding industry are a group of thieves who steal our (and our future generations) most valued resources to line their pocket books.

    There are some that are good guys and gals for sure, running reputable operaions, many I know personally, but the majority of these operations are not. If you are one of the few good operations that don't fit into this 74 percent wanting to go to a 1/3 year harvest, (or any other suggestion limiting ALASKA RESIDENTS sheep hunting oppritunities), good on you, you are true conservationist. If you are part of that group wanting to limit mine or any other residents oppritunity, hopefully your "business" and I say that very loosely, fails and you are unemployed ASAP. Your type makes me sick to my stomach. You can never have enough can you, your greed is unbelievable.

    I voted in the above pole to reduce guides exactly as the feds do by going to the old style guide concession. This would fix 90 percent of our issues. Heck.....the APHA advocates for it. It is funny how the BOG proposal number 208 talked about how they would not limit non residents on federal ground because they are already limited. For the most part the best harvest ticket sheep hunts are on federal land. Funny how that works, limit the most greedy, and our sheep hunting improves.

    I truly believe there are only 4 problem areas in Alaska with overcrowding........mostly 20A and 19C. Limit the guides in those areas is really all that will be necessary. But no, they say "there is nothing wrong in our areas", "you residents just need to hike farther"
    You bad mouth guides who aren't conservation minded and then admit to killing a sheep every year yourself. Classic
    Responsible Conservation > Political Allocation

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoose35 View Post
    You bad mouth guides who aren't conservation minded and then admit to killing a sheep every year yourself. Classic
    ..

  14. #14

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    So the inverse is true in the Eastern Brooks? No over-use issues there from transporters/res? I have the opportunity to work with non-res and res and am pretty skeptical of anyone who simply points the finger at the other group. There are areas where both are f-ing it up. Both groups care a lot about the problem and neither is gonna take 100% of the burden nor should they. I'm a resident hunter first with my kids, but the outfitters I know are generally awesome steward of the resource. Its easy to say guides are the problem on a resident dominated forum and the inverse is true in a group of guides. That hasn't made much progress thus far.
    As I've said before in other posts, I believe one of the reasons why the brooks has gotten so "crowded" with resident hunters in some areas is to avoid spots that have high guide pressure. So in my mind, if all areas of the state had the same amount of non-resident take/guide pressure than residents would avoid certain areas and not concentrate in others. If we eliminate the main reasons for crowding specific areas, then it makes since that crowding would be reduced.

    I think the main point most are trying to convey here is that the current lack of regulation in the system is screwing the resource up, not just "evil guides". Although I agree that most guides care about the resource, it makes things very complicated when money is involved and no one is held accountable. You can't not regulate the amount of guides and expect no problems will arise with a resource (like sheep). Since the amount of animals available for harvest is extremely limited there must be regulation. In a perfect world with an unlimited number of full curl rams we wouldn't need to regulate harvest for anyone. However, since full curl rams only comprise 6%-8% of an entire population it makes them a very limited resource. The pie is only so big and there are only a certain number of animals which can be harvested each year.

    This leads us to the main question, whether or not non-residents should be limited in their take of Alaska's game animals. Currently in general season sheep hunts there is no regulation in the amount of animals that guided non-residents are allowed to take. When we compare this to the rest of the U.S. it is apparent that most states have regulated the percentage of animals non-residents can take in given hunts (specifically sheep). Since many resident hunters are having bad experiences hunting sheep it makes sense to me to regulate non-resident hunters first. Then if it still necessary to regulate resident hunters.

    Kevin, Do you think it's okay that outfitters/non-resident hunters killed 50%+ of the sheep in unit 20A this year while residents experienced poor hunter success in that area (compared to regions of the state where guides/non-resident harvest is limited)? Also, why is it wrong for residents to harvest a sheep every year when guides harvest multiple animals every year with clients?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hoose35 View Post
    You bad mouth guides who aren't conservation minded and then admit to killing a sheep every year yourself. Classic
    Taking a ram each year as a resident or a non resident, guided or not is conservation minded there genius. Those guiding outfits that rape our resource to line there pockets, taking multiple clients, crowding the "little guy" out are the scum I am referring to.

    74 percent of the guides who were sent this survey wished for more resident curtailment of sheep hunting opportunity. It is not scientific by any means, but it was sent out to the cross section of the guiding and commercial outfits, that is the way they listed their wishes. So with that, I deducted 74 percent of the guides operating in this state are greedy little worms. I will bad mouth any of them, whether that is to their face or on an open forum such as this.

    To state my idea of helping fix these overcrowding issues again.......limit the guiding industry as the feds do.......the professional organization that MOST guides belong to........advocate for this......the APHA. At this time I don't feel that there is a resource issue at all. Just a limited amount of ground to hunt. But since the state refuses to take up the guide concession program, the only real way is to limit guides......which consequently will limit non residents is to a limited the amount of permits available to NR.

    There is four problem areas in this state, micro manage these areas, 20A and 19C. Why can't this take place? Most of these sheep proposals started coming around after the Chugach went full draw.........displaced many resident hunters. Add that to the numerous new guiding outfits since then that crowd the limited state land, boom.....major crowding issue.

    FYI, I am bad mouthing the 74 percent of the guides that stated they wanted to limit ALASKAN RESIDENT yearly sheep hunting opportunities on the states sheep survey sent out last year. If that is you or you are offended I DONT CARE. Like the numerous private messages I get from this site, MOST residents agree with me. Heck just look at the survey results from this forum. Heavily favors limits to non resident opportunity. Limit the greedy guides and this problem is fixed. Those REPUTABLE guiding operations will flourish. The others......will be gone like the wind and not a moment too soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AK-HUNT View Post
    So the inverse is true in the Eastern Brooks? No over-use issues there from transporters/res? I have the opportunity to work with non-res and res and am pretty skeptical of anyone who simply points the finger at the other group. There are areas where both are f-ing it up. Both groups care a lot about the problem and neither is gonna take 100% of the burden nor should they. I'm a resident hunter first, but I do asst guide sometimes (and fly for them) and the outfitters I know are generally awesome steward of the resource. Its easy to say guides are the problem on a resident dominated forum and the inverse is true in a group of guides. That hasn't made much progress thus far.

    I guess we will fundamentally disagree. If there is not enough resource for both non residents and residents to harvest, or areas to hunt, what is available to harvest goes to residents bottom line. That is the way I feel, and most here in this state feel the same.

    To answer your question, I don't have issues with the overcrowding in the drainage I hunt in the Brooks. The feds do a great job limiting the guiding and amount of rams the guiding outfits can take. Are there others that hunt it.....yes.....but not to the extent that you will see in 20A and 19C.

    I'm sure if you state the guides you know are awesome stewards of the resource I guess that is your opinion....I don't know them you do. But if any of that crew you know answered the survey wishing for more resident sheep hunter curtailment, they are far from awesome stewards......they care for only dollars signs on the future sheep that won't be taken by resident sheep hunters who won't able to hunt every year if they had their wishes.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheephunteralaska View Post
    Taking a ram each year as a resident or a non resident, guided or not is conservation minded there genius. Those guiding outfits that rape our resource to line there pockets, taking multiple clients, crowding the "little guy" out are the scum I am referring to.

    74 percent of the guides who were sent this survey wished for more resident curtailment of sheep hunting opportunity. It is not scientific by any means, but it was sent out to the cross section of the guiding and commercial outfits, that is the way they listed their wishes. So with that, I deducted 74 percent of the guides operating in this state are greedy little worms. I will bad mouth any of them, whether that is to their face or on an open forum such as this.

    To state my idea of helping fix these overcrowding issues again.......limit the guiding industry as the feds do.......the professional organization that MOST guides belong to........advocate for this......the APHA. At this time I don't feel that there is a resource issue at all. Just a limited amount of ground to hunt. But since the state refuses to take up the guide concession program, the only real way is to limit guides......which consequently will limit non residents is to a limited the amount of permits available to NR.

    There is four problem areas in this state, micro manage these areas, 20A and 19C. Why can't this take place? Most of these sheep proposals started coming around after the Chugach went full draw.........displaced many resident hunters. Add that to the numerous new guiding outfits since then that crowd the limited state land, boom.....major crowding issue.

    FYI, I am bad mouthing the 74 percent of the guides that stated they wanted to limit ALASKAN RESIDENT yearly sheep hunting opportunities on the states sheep survey sent out last year. If that is you or you are offended I DONT CARE. Like the numerous private messages I get from this site, MOST residents agree with me. Heck just look at the survey results from this forum. Heavily favors limits to non resident opportunity. Limit the greedy guides and this problem is fixed. Those REPUTABLE guiding operations will flourish. The others......will be gone like the wind and not a moment too soon.
    Can you explain to me how taking a ram is conserving the sheep? I think conservation is NOT taking a ram every year. By your thinking, catching a king salmon is conservation, hmm I think not. I am not saying guides do not rape the resource, some of them do. I am most certainly not a guide for anything in any way, shape, or form. I tend to lead toward the conservation side of things, and I don't bash one group of users in the name of allocation.
    Responsible Conservation > Political Allocation

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    Quote Originally Posted by hoose35 View Post
    Can you explain to me how taking a ram is conserving the sheep? I think conservation is NOT taking a ram every year. By your thinking, catching a king salmon is conservation, hmm I think not. I am not saying guides do not rape the resource, some of them do. I am most certainly not a guide for anything in any way, shape, or form. I tend to lead toward the conservation side of things, and I don't bash one group of users in the name of allocation.
    Because all LEGAL rams are considered a surplus whether harvested or not. We don't have a resource problem, we have a limited amount of areas that we can access to hunt these rams in four distinct areas of the state that all fall on state land which does not limit guiding activity. Do you sheep hunt? Do you have any crowding issues? Did you take the survey that was sent out by Fish and Game this year concerning sheep hunting? I am not against non resident hunting in this state at all. I just am against a commercial "user group" as you call them with NO LIMITS on what they take or number of clients they bring in which causes a major crowding issue in these four areas. Are you aware that the AK Professional Hunters Association favors exactly what I wish would become law. You don't advocate the APHA are bashing guides do you? I am just echoing their wishes. I am bashing any guide that would wish for resident sheep hunting opportunity curtailment for sure though.....they are crooked snakes for sure.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheephunteralaska View Post
    Because all LEGAL rams are considered a surplus whether harvested or not. We don't have a resource problem, we have a limited amount of areas that we can access to hunt these rams in four distinct areas of the state that all fall on state land which does not limit guiding activity. Do you sheep hunt? Do you have any crowding issues? Did you take the survey that was sent out by Fish and Game this year concerning sheep hunting? I am not against non resident hunting in this state at all. I just am against a commercial "user group" as you call them with NO LIMITS on what they take or number of clients they bring in which causes a major crowding issue in these four areas. Are you aware that the AK Professional Hunters Association favors exactly what I wish would become law. You don't advocate the APHA are bashing guides do you? I am just echoing their wishes. I am bashing any guide that would wish for resident sheep hunting opportunity curtailment for sure though.....they are crooked snakes for sure.
    I'm not disagreeing with you on the over crowding issue. I don't hunt with crowds so I only sheep hunting drawing tags, if/when I get them. I am disagreeing with some of your views. On one hand, you said guides must be restricted/limited, on the other hand, you say there is no resource issues. So if there are plenty of resources to go around, why do limits need to be implemented? I get the feeling you just want more/better hunting areas for yourself. Maybe I'm wrong.
    Responsible Conservation > Political Allocation

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    Quote Originally Posted by hoose35 View Post
    I'm not disagreeing with you on the over crowding issue. I don't hunt with crowds so I only sheep hunting drawing tags, if/when I get them. I am disagreeing with some of your views. On one hand, you said guides must be restricted/limited, on the other hand, you say there is no resource issues. So if there are plenty of resources to go around, why do limits need to be implemented? I get the feeling you just want more/better hunting areas for yourself. Maybe I'm wrong.
    This is not at all about me. I hunt the Brooks range with zero crowds or guiding activity in the area I walk to after landing at a remote strip. I hunt this area because the terrific sheep hunting less than 50 miles away is overrun with commercial guiding activity. There is not a sheep resource issue in my opinion in most areas of the state, but there definitely is an area to hunt issue that is not overrun with guiding activity in 20A and 19C. Again, I am not advocating anything the APHA is not already advocating.

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