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Thread: protection rifle

  1. #1

    Default protection rifle

    Hello, we have an assortment of guns for bear protection such as a .44 mag revolver, 454 Casull, and Mossberg 12 ga. short pump gun. I believe we have the bases covered, but I kinda like the lever action rifles and am dreaming about a 1895 guide gun in stainless steel in 45-70 for another bear discourager. I'd like to stay with a caliber that's affordable (store bought ammo) and want to know if that is adequate? I know they chamber those guns in different calibers. I'm not a hunter, but if the need ever came up in the future, I'd like that gun to be able to bring down a moose. Any suggestions will be appreciated!
    Also, for our Mossberg 500 pump gun, what would you guys recommend for bear protection in slugs? (store bought). My friend recommends alternating slugs with 00 buckshot.
    Thanks,
    Jim

  2. #2
    Member Big Al's Avatar
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    Slugs only in your 12ga Bernicke brand (I'm sure I miss spelled that).

    As to the guide gun in 45-70 it will do for all you will want to kill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Al View Post
    Slugs only in your 12ga Bernicke brand (I'm sure I miss spelled that). As to the guide gun in 45-70 it will do for all you will want to kill.

    What Al said.

    With a shotgun (and another barrel) you also have the option of shooting shot for ducks, grouse and other small game. Or buckshot for deer or even bear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bustedknee View Post
    What Al said.

    With a shotgun (and another barrel) you also have the option of shooting shot for ducks, grouse and other small game. Or buckshot for deer or even bear.
    Buck Shot for deer is a waste of lead... unless your less than 20m, more pellets will miss the deer. Buckshot is great for people but not animals with 4 legs.
    As far as slugs go your firearm will tell you what it likes, if you have a riffled barrel sabots are great. Sabots also work in smooth bores but not the best at 75m-100m. A good hard hitting slug is the Remington “BuckHammer”. Just hold on because they kick a bit more than normal slugs. I shot a whitetail last year with one from my 20ga, knocked him right over, literally. They kick too much for my taste (for deer) so I stick with my 12ga, 2 3/4” federal premium sabots in my NEF riffled barrel.
    Josh
    Back in Afghanistan, I hope for the last time.

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    Member SoldotnaDave's Avatar
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    Another Vote for the 45/70 Guide gun

    As for using buckshot, anything more than about 25 feet away is going to be a waste of lead.
    Formerly known as one who clings to guns and religion

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    Slugs are best for bear over buckshot.

    Which slug you want is up to you...follow this link to test results and such of most brands.

    http://www.nrapublications.org/tah/Slugs.asp

    Stainless guide in .45-70 is very good, just use heavier than 300 grain factory JHP....they are too frangible for me and seem to be meant for deer type game.

    405 grain factory flat point soft points or any buffalo bore or garrett loads are tops.

    Buck shot that is nickel plated like remington 000 buck premier (if its still made) is the bomb diggity in a full choke for running deer in woods and brush....my brother swears by it with about 70 deer killed running from 20 to 60 yards...unplated buckshot gets deformed and spreads too weird and uneven for any reliability....however any of it aint enough for bear in my opinion as it cant reliably penetrate skulls or break any bone other than ribs.

    jedi

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    Keep in mind the range generally set for "bear discouraging". Years ago the USFWS did a great comparison on a bunch of cartridges. First they set the test at 30 yards. Beyond that there is a better chance the bear will run than fight. (remember this is their test, not mine). At 30 yards and less, the heavier fatter bullets far out performed the lighter ones. I don't recall buckshot ever making the list. slugs do ok, and like said before a shotgun gives you options.
    If you practice with a long gun and hand gun equally, you will still shoot the long gun better. Stick with what you shoot really well. The venerable .44 mag barely made the USFWS list.
    Try several different loads in the Mossberg. I know my old one threw slugs about 6" high at 30 yards. great for rising birds and shot, but not for charging Meanies.
    I have a .444 so won't trade for another lever. If you have options, buy what you will like to shoot.

  8. #8

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    Having never shot a 45-70; how does the recoil compare to a 3" shotgun slug fired from our Mossberg 500 short barrel pump? I guess I'm asking about the aforementioned 405 grain 45-70; does that compare to a a shotgun slug?
    Also, on the Peninsula, is there a shooting range or is it just best to get away from town out and practice with nobody around and using a hill or something as a backstop?
    Jim
    PS---for the 45-70, I'd be interested in the Guide Gun in stainless steel; I'm sure barrel length has an affect on recoil?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Jim View Post
    Having never shot a 45-70; how does the recoil compare to a 3" shotgun slug fired from our Mossberg 500 short barrel pump? I guess I'm asking about the aforementioned 405 grain 45-70; does that compare to a a shotgun slug?

    Jim
    PS---for the 45-70, I'd be interested in the Guide Gun in stainless steel; I'm sure barrel length has an affect on recoil?
    Honestly, I think 3" federal shotgun slugs kick worse outta a light shotgun than my .375 H&H.

    The factory .45-70 405 grainers will be a walk in the park if you are used to 3" mag slugs, even out of the short barrel marlin.

    http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe...dsReturned2=20

    The garret hardcast and buffalo bore rounds step up the power level exclusively for modern guns like the marlin and recoil gets back to the 3" mag level quickly.(garret loads are serious bear rounds in every respect for the marlin rifles)

    There are also grizzly brand cartridges too.

    The guide gun should be a great choice.

    jedi

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    Default gotta go with the guide gun

    I have been using my modified guide gun for several years now for both bear protection and hunting. They are much more accurate than you are going to be with any shotgun and with a good 405gr premium jacked bullet or hard cast will penetrate much better than any slug. I have all of wild west guns goodies on my guide gun including a light mount. The light mount is VERY nice for those scary situations where your wandering around in the dark or low light. I have my light beam adjusted so that the center of the light is roughly the impact point so you could almost point and shoot at close, 10-15 feet, range. I just dont think it gets any better than this!


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    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    I'd also vote guide gun. There are very few slugs that I'd trust to have sufficient penetration on bear, and I'm including the brenneke in that list. The dia is simply too large for the weight and velocity of slugs.

    I've shot several guide guns from stock to tricked out WWG co-pilots. I'd say with the stiffest loads they are on par with a 3" slug. I would not use the factory 405 gr loads as they are a far cry from a good hardcast load at the level the guide gun can handle.

    Phil Schoemaker, a well regarded guide, states that the 45-70 with a 430 gr hardcast load is very effective on the big bears.

  12. #12
    Member Big Al's Avatar
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    Paul H. Is this why the state of Alaska issues this ammo to there people for bear protection?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul H View Post
    I would not use the factory 405 gr loads as they are a far cry from a good hardcast load at the level the guide gun can handle.

    Phil Schoemaker, a well regarded guide, states that the 45-70 with a 430 gr hardcast load is very effective on the big bears.
    I have no doubt about any of the hot, heavy hardcast loads, that is why I recommended them.

    http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...eitemid=346246

    However, I think this factory 405 grain jacketed load may surprise you. Heavier is better, but this is a good start point over the anemic 300 grain JHP WIN-FED-REM loads.

    405 grain jacketed
    Muzzle Velocity: 2000 fps
    Muzzle Energy: 3597 ft. lbs.

    jedi

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    USFWS still issues Win. 70 375HH, many in pre 64. Friend works for them in JNU and goes through them yearly. Over the years they have very few failures documented. I wonder how the feed success rate is on the levers mentioned as compared to the 375? I know on my .444 I have to pay attention to be sure everything in the feed assembly is tight, otherwise she is just a bit finicky. Anybody have personal knowledge on both?

  15. #15
    Member Big Al's Avatar
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    Of course Wild West Guns builds and installs special made part for the Marlin lever guns that prevents these problems you mention.

  16. #16

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    Jeez guys, I'm chomping at the bit! Does anyone have a guide gun in 45-70 to sell (stainless?). I just might have to buy a new one; I'll be up there (peninsula july 18-Aug 8).
    Sounds like that'd fit the bill; I just like the way lever guns look; as well as being able to hunt with it if the need ever arises.
    Thanks,
    Jim

  17. #17
    Member Big Al's Avatar
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    If you have vary deep pockets, call WILD WEST GUNS, you need to do all this ahead of time as you face problems coming from out of state and doing a transfer. Besides you want to get familiar with your new toy, before the hunt.

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    I have been doing wildlife surveys on the lower Kuskokwim last summer ans this summer. I have a Mossberg 500 A1. The first shell is a Federal Turkey load, 2 ounces of #6. That's 700 pellets. I have choked the shotgun to make a pattern about 8 inches across at thirty feet. The rest of the shells are 3" slugs.

  19. #19

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    Um.. would one of the .454 1892 carbine clones work okay in this application? And say kept with .45 Colt the rest of the time?

    I presently have a 308 Mauser, but seeing as how it's kinda finicky with the feeding thing, and a little clunky compared to the little '92, I was wondering about replacing it... and would prefer something trimmer than say the Marlins or shotguns. Is that a decent choice up here?

  20. #20

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    I'm in the "hit em in the right spot" club Jenny, so I have to think you're onto something with that rifle. It will let you shoot lots of cheaper, lower recoil 45LC rounds to get really good with it. From a rifle the 454 has lots more jeewhiz than the 454 from all the handguns people carry and feel safe with, so if they're right you're even more right.

    Best of all, if the rifle fits you and you have confidence in it, you'll be carrying it when you need it rather than leaving it behind because it's too heavy or cumbersome.

    I'd check into the Uncle Mike swivel base setups for attaching a sling, then get a comfortable sling for it.

    I hadn't really thought of one of these before, but even with a house full of guns I think I'm interested.

    Thanks for the idea!

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