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Thread: I heard something I don't buy.

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    Default I heard something I don't buy.

    I heard something on the Radio, last Sunday, (Guntalk Show) that I don't agree with.

    Maybe, it's because I didn't like the source. But, Anyway.

    The man said that if you have DA Revolver, you should NEVER, NEVER, shoot it SA. He didn't say why, or at least I didn't hear why. Maybe, wer'e all spose to know. ???

    Can anyone shed some light on his possible reasoning? Is it some kind of Tactical Consideration, based on the difference in trigger pull DA versus SA?

    I seriously, doubt if most of us are going to give up shooting DA SA revolvers BOTH ways.

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    Only the guy who said that knows what he meant. There is the theory that in a high stress situation if you have the DA cocked and for example a cricket farts that may cause you to pull the trigger when it was not justified (This assumes you shot the bad guy and failed to shoot the cricket) all because of the blast from the crickets butt caused you to flinch at the massive explosion from the crickets exhaust port.

    It just does not look good to the Grand Jury. Grand Juries like you to use DA in self defense shootings. Cocked (in their opinion) looks like there was a premedated intent to kill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    I heard something on the Radio, last Sunday, (Guntalk Show) that I don't agree with.

    Maybe, it's because I didn't like the source. But, Anyway.

    The man said that if you have DA Revolver, you should NEVER, NEVER, shoot it SA. He didn't say why, or at least I didn't hear why. Maybe, wer'e all spose to know. ???

    Can anyone shed some light on his possible reasoning? Is it some kind of Tactical Consideration, based on the difference in trigger pull DA versus SA?

    I seriously, doubt if most of us are going to give up shooting DA SA revolvers BOTH ways.

    Smitty of the North
    Read the comments in this link. It's probably the same guy.

    http://www.gunnuts.net/2010/08/24/re...-new-shooters/

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    I've heard that kinda of stuff for 30 years now...justified about 30 different ways. Never made any sense to me.

    A cocked DA revolver in a high stress situation is likely more prone to go off...but I gotta think if a situation is stressful enough I've drawn the revolver and cocked it...something probably needs some shooting. IIRC back in the dark ages (the 70sand 80s) some cop shops would file off the SA notch to prevent POs from cocking the M66 or M10...S&W followed suit and produce a variety of DA only revolvers. Then the Glock came along and almost nobody shot revolvers anymore.
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    I have been shooting my DA revolvers SA since I bought my very 1st on about 40 years ago. No ill effects on them or me. The revolver I pack the most is a Ruger Redhawk I bought in the mid 80's. It has had thousands of round put through it. Nearly all of them in SA mode. I call "BUNK".
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    The comments in the link above aren't about safety. They're about self defense. And the guy says he wrote an article on it.

    So it's likely some self defense theory, that if you shoot SA you'll screw up under pressure when you're in a self defense DA situation.

    Sounds dumb. Just more words so people can sell magazines/books/radio airtime. Etc.

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    Been cocking and shooting DA revolvers for years now, and will continue to do so, no reason for me to do otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by .338WM View Post
    Been cocking and shooting DA revolvers for years now, and will continue to do so, no reason for me to do otherwise.
    Same here. I prefer SA, but I have 2 DA revolvers.

    The only advantage I can see is that in a VERY TIGHT situation, I have the option to just pull the trigger, without having to pull the hammer back first. BUT, I would probably go on auto and pull the hammer back anyway.

    I shoot DA on occasion, although I know I'll never be very proficient at shooting that way. My 44 hurts my paw, when I shoot DA but not when I shoot it SA. I must be doing a different grip, somehow. ???

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    Definitely have to reach a little more for DA because of the extra pull.

    What grips are you using on your SW? I just tried out some new Eagle checkered walnut grips today. Certainly a lot harder on my hand than the stock rubber grip. But skinnier and sure are pretty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    I heard something on the Radio, last Sunday, (Guntalk Show) that I don't agree with.

    Maybe, it's because I didn't like the source. But, Anyway.

    The man said that if you have DA Revolver, you should NEVER, NEVER, shoot it SA. He didn't say why, or at least I didn't hear why. Maybe, wer'e all spose to know. ???

    Can anyone shed some light on his possible reasoning? Is it some kind of Tactical Consideration, based on the difference in trigger pull DA versus SA?

    I seriously, doubt if most of us are going to give up shooting DA SA revolvers BOTH ways.

    Smitty of the North
    The only advantage I can see is that in a VERY TIGHT situation, I have the option to just pull the trigger, without having to pull the hammer back first. BUT, I would probably go on auto and pull the hammer back anyway.

    I shoot DA on occasion, although I know I'll never be very proficient at shooting that way.

    Smitty of the North
    Asked and answered, perfectly. The opinionated debate regarding double action vs single action has been around for decades. The premise being that human nature dictates we do as we practice. When we practice shooting single action in favor of double action, that tends to be the habit we fall back on when TSHTF; We predictably "go on auto and pull the hammer back anyway." The theory of those who advocate for always practicing double action is that in a self defense situation, those who don't will "go on auto (as you so perfectly articulated) and pull the hammer back anyway", and that may make the difference between life and death. While I have in the past, I don't currently own any double actions, but I intimately understand the value of the rule that you "train as you do, do as you train." I'm not taking sides in the debate, just making an observation.
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  11. #11

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    I prefer to shoot single action. But I prefer the frame, grip, and loading of double action. So I have a DA that I shoot SA. Works great.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    Only the guy who said that knows what he meant. There is the theory that in a high stress situation if you have the DA cocked and for example a cricket farts that may cause you to pull the trigger when it was not justified (This assumes you shot the bad guy and failed to shoot the cricket) all because of the blast from the crickets butt caused you to flinch at the massive explosion from the crickets exhaust port.

    It just does not look good to the Grand Jury. Grand Juries like you to use DA in self defense shootings. Cocked (in their opinion) looks like there was a premedated intent to kill.
    Pray tell...how would anyone other than you ever know?

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    I have been shooting S&W revolvers for 50 +years and single action autos for almost as long. I have no idea how many thousands of rounds I have put through a wheel gun. I also spent some time with Ruger Single action revolvers, but prefer S&W. I carried a K & L Frame revolver for a number of years before my department switched to semi-autos. All of the shooting we did was timed at 25 yds. and under and we never cocked a revolver. I used to hunt small game with K & J Frame S&W .22 revolvers and sometimes I would cock the gun. As I became more proficient I quite doing it and just pulled the trigger. Mastering the manipulation of the trigger is the most important part of hand gun accuracy. The best DA revolver shooter I know of is Jerry Micluek, the famous S+W shooter. He is on U Tube and I have never seen him cock a revolver or stage a trigger and he is unbelievably fast and accurate and he does not use lightened springs, etc. Clint Smith owns Thunder Ranch in Oregon, one of the nations premier firearms training facilities. Clint has a very impressive resume and does not believe in cocking a DA revolver. In fact I don't know of any current top national firearms trainers who recommend cocking a DA revolver. Does that mean no one can safely fire a revolver that way, I don't think so. What it means to me is some revolver shooters don't need to cock a DA revolver to improve accuracy and some believe they do. Other wise why go through the added motion of cocking the revolver, it just slows the firing time down. So after 50 + years of revolver shooting I will continue to shoot my S&W revolvers by simply pulling the trigger, works fine for me. That includes my S&W .44 Mag. Mountain Gun, I just have to shoot it slower then the others with heavy loads due to the recoil. But, in a self defense situation, which includes bad guys or bears, I don't need to cock a revolver. But, if others need to for what ever reason then have at it. Just my opinion and experiences guys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    Asked and answered, perfectly. The opinionated debate regarding double action vs single action has been around for decades. The premise being that human nature dictates we do as we practice. When we practice shooting single action in favor of double action, that tends to be the habit we fall back on when TSHTF; We predictably "go on auto and pull the hammer back anyway." The theory of those who advocate for always practicing double action is that in a self defense situation, those who don't will "go on auto (as you so perfectly articulated) and pull the hammer back anyway", and that may make the difference between life and death. While I have in the past, I don't currently own any double actions, but I intimately understand the value of the rule that you "train as you do, do as you train." I'm not taking sides in the debate, just making an observation.
    Well then, let's talk about the actual advantages of DA, shooting.

    Granted, DA may have a perceptive advantage, when it's pressed against a bear, and you may be able to load them faster, but I'm talking about a "shooting" advantage.

    The only one I can think of is SPEED. I'm sure "I" couldn't shoot DA as accurately as SA even if I'd shot them ONLY that way. What am I missing here, with the guys mindset?

    Put simply, Why shoot DA? DA, Only? Even if one can learn to shoot well, DA? I would not recommend it to a novice as he did. I would just point out that you can do either. I think SA shooting has a place with a DA.

    But, I claim no expertise on this stuff. I'm just trying to reason it out.

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  15. #15

    Default Win the Legal Battle

    I heard the radio show mentioned in the original post and thought immediately about the SA/DA arguments that have played out on other threads. Iím sure the debate will continue. Here are some good points mentioned elsewhere in this thread and maybe some more food for thought.
    1. Yes, under stress and with an additional surprise, which is possible, some people will reflexively pull the trigger. That is not to say that you will, but some might. Seems like a novice is somewhat more likely to react that way.
    2. Speed. Double action is faster for almost everybody. Almost anyone is capable of shooting DA accurately especially at common defensive distance.
    3. Recommendations of top Instructors. See mention of Clint Smith above.
    4. Set yourself up to win the legal fight after the gunfight.
    I just finished reading one of Massad Ayoobís latest books, Deadly Force Understanding Your Right to Self Defense. He cites a couple legal cases where trigger weight made the difference. One case; specifically about cocking a DA/SA revolver was New York v. Frank Magliato . Massadís point is that it may be easier for lawyer to convince a jury that a gun went off by accident (manslaughter) than it is to convince them that a law abiding citizen suddenly turned into a murdering monster.

    Mark Burch

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    Quote Originally Posted by Planner View Post
    I heard the radio show mentioned in the original post and thought immediately about the SA/DA arguments that have played out on other threads. Iím sure the debate will continue. Here are some good points mentioned elsewhere in this thread and maybe some more food for thought.
    1. Yes, under stress and with an additional surprise, which is possible, some people will reflexively pull the trigger. That is not to say that you will, but some might. Seems like a novice is somewhat more likely to react that way.
    2. Speed. Double action is faster for almost everybody. Almost anyone is capable of shooting DA accurately especially at common defensive distance.
    3. Recommendations of top Instructors. See mention of Clint Smith above.
    4. Set yourself up to win the legal fight after the gunfight.
    I just finished reading one of Massad Ayoobís latest books, Deadly Force Understanding Your Right to Self Defense. He cites a couple legal cases where trigger weight made the difference. One case; specifically about cocking a DA/SA revolver was New York v. Frank Magliato . Massadís point is that it may be easier for lawyer to convince a jury that a gun went off by accident (manslaughter) than it is to convince them that a law abiding citizen suddenly turned into a murdering monster.

    Mark Burch
    Thanks for your reply.

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    Hi Smitty,
    As I tried to say in my earlier reply to this thread, I think it is up to the shooter to decide which way he wants to shoot his revolver. As long as the shooting method allows the shooter to fire safely then only they can decide if that method meets their speed and accuracy requirements. All my cocking of the trigger by using the hammer was done with my support hand and the finger should never be on the trigger when this manipulation is being performed. Speed and accuracy requirements are not the same for every one given the many types of shooting situations the world offers. Years ago I shot many grouse and bunnies with revolvers in .22 and mild mannered .44 Special loads. Most of it was in "single action mode", but all of the speed shooting I did when training in hand gun and defense tactics with a revolver was in "double action" mode. So after 50+ years of dry firing and sending tens of thousands of timed rounds down range, I believe single action shooting offers no "practical accuracy" benefits for a double action revolver. But, the shooter has to master the trigger pull in order to fire accurately in the "double action mode", other wise the full potential of a good "double action" revolver is not utilized. A bit of trivia here. The original term "double action", refers to the trigger cocking and releasing the hammer/striker, not 2 different firing modes, but the term "double action revolver", has evolved into describing 2 different methods of firing a "double action revolver". Good shooting to ya!

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by .338 mag. View Post
    Hi Smitty,
    As I tried to say in my earlier reply to this thread, I think it is up to the shooter to decide which way he wants to shoot his revolver. As long as the shooting method allows the shooter to fire safely then only they can decide if that method meets their speed and accuracy requirements. All my cocking of the trigger by using the hammer was done with my support hand and the finger should never be on the trigger when this manipulation is being performed. Speed and accuracy requirements are not the same for every one given the many types of shooting situations the world offers. Years ago I shot many grouse and bunnies with revolvers in .22 and mild mannered .44 Special loads. Most of it was in "single action mode", but all of the speed shooting I did when training in hand gun and defense tactics with a revolver was in "double action" mode. So after 50+ years of dry firing and sending tens of thousands of timed rounds down range, I believe single action shooting offers no "practical accuracy" benefits for a double action revolver. But, the shooter has to master the trigger pull in order to fire accurately in the "double action mode", other wise the full potential of a good "double action" revolver is not utilized. A bit of trivia here. The original term "double action", refers to the trigger cocking and releasing the hammer/striker, not 2 different firing modes, but the term "double action revolver", has evolved into describing 2 different methods of firing a "double action revolver". Good shooting to ya!
    I believe ya! I can't shoot double action like you can. However I can shoot DA much better than I used to be able to shoot DA. I have a friend here in iowa that has shot thousands upon thousands of rounds in the double action mode. He can pick up any S&W and rapidly pull the trigger and hit what he is aiming at. He can slow it down a notch and the hammer will stop it's reward movement the cylinder will latch up and then he lets the hammers fall. It's just like he is shooting it single action only he is controlling the hammer through the trigger pull. It's amazing to me.

    I once made the short trip to Brownell's Big Creek Shooting Range as Jerry Micluek was putting on a shooting demonstration. When he was introduced it was mentioned that in one year he shot up $80,000 dollars worth of ammo through his favorite handgun or handguns. Can you imagine shooting a handgun that much? At what point would it quit being fun. My old friend Butch that I eluded to earlier had a 55 gallon barrel full of throw away 38 special brass. That was the ones that had split from too many trips through the sizing and crimping dies. Yes! There are guys that can shoot a double action revolver and do it very, very well. They paid their dues to get where they are too. I'm sorry that I am not one of them. I guess I'm just going to have to be content to do my critter killing with my new Single 10 or my Super Blackhawks in the single action mode because my double action abilities are not apt to get to the point where they will do for hunting!

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by .338 mag. View Post
    ...A bit of trivia here. The original term "double action", refers to the trigger cocking and releasing the hammer/striker, not 2 different firing modes, but the term "double action revolver", has evolved into describing 2 different methods of firing a "double action revolver".
    Had never heard this before. I'll stick with the proper original definition, thank you very much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    Had never heard this before. I'll stick with the proper original definition, thank you very much.
    So you are not aware of the existence of double action only (DAO) revolvers.




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