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Thread: 45-70 vs. 475 LB recoil

  1. #1

    Default 45-70 vs. 475 LB recoil

    A while back, we were discussing pressure differences among similar loads, and the relation of that to recoil. A very specific question has grown out of that:
    Let's say I have two identical lever-rifles. One is chambered for 45-70, and the other is chambered for 475 Linebaugh. Both are loaded w/400 gr. bullets of the same make, and both are loaded to 1400 fps. Obviously, I'm using two very different powders.
    Which do I feel more?

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    Quote Originally Posted by go_north View Post
    A while back, we were discussing pressure differences among similar loads, and the relation of that to recoil. A very specific question has grown out of that:
    Let's say I have two identical lever-rifles. One is chambered for 45-70, and the other is chambered for 475 Linebaugh. Both are loaded w/400 gr. bullets of the same make, and both are loaded to 1400 fps. Obviously, I'm using two very different powders.
    Which do I feel more?
    Greater ammount of powder adds a slight ammount of recoil but you don't give powder weights.

    The .45-70 bullet would have better penetration and higher recoil because of higher SD.

    How perceptable it would be I can't say.

    Each person has his own perception of felt recoil, however slight, the difference is there though.

    The .45-70 would recoil more...penetrate more...and hold trajectory and velocity better.

    http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

    http://www.beartoothbullets.com/resc...php/recoil.htm

    http://www.rfgc.org/reload/recoil_calc.htm

    http://www.siskguns.com/SISK%20RIFLE...alculation.htm

    http://www.netrifle.com/shortmags/smo-recoil.htm

    jedi
    Last edited by null20071; 06-16-2007 at 06:45.

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    Default everything you want to know

    http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/index.htm

    This site has recoil calculators and Taylor KO numbers as well as penetration and everything in between.

    Have fun with numbers all day long.

    jedi

  4. #4

    Talking recoil by the numbers

    I think most being equal, the burning rate (faster has somewhat sharper recoil) of the different powders, would be the only factor that would effect the difference in recoil, but doubtless you'd ever notice any difference. Ciao.
    If you like getting kicked by a mule...then you'll "love" shooting my .458.

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    To throw another variable in the game....twist rate. Twist can be a factor especially in large caliber with heavy bullets. Slower twists give lower felt recoil. Part of this is due to the tristing torque of the gun when the bullet is forced down through a tight twist. This isn't in the recoil formula but felt recoil is affected. Similar to powder burning rate, we aren't able to factor in the gas volume or exit velocity and pressure but we know it can be a factor. This factor is represented by the powder velocity constant of 4700 in the equation but we know it isn't always exactly that.

    In your question the greater powder volume of the 45-70 charge (about twice the 475 LB charge) would increase recoil and likely the gas pressure behavior would add to it also, barrel length would matter. Some time back Magnum Research compared the 45-70 revolver to the 454 Casull revolver and said it gave equal ballistics with less recoil, in the same gun weight, they couldn't give me the formula for that calculation.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  6. #6

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    I wondered about that claim by Magnum Research, too. Powder used in 45-70 burns much slower, but overall, there's much more to burn! The significantly smaller amounts of powder in handgun cartridges have got to recoil less overall, even if they burn faster.

    I'm kind of liking the idea of a lever-gun in 475 LB. Sure, SD and therefore penetration isn't as high as 45-70... but like I've said before, I don't need enough penetration to pass through 50 bears standing in a row...I just need to pass through one. There's not a doubt in my mind that the 390 grain Punch bullet, out of 475 LB, would exit the biggest bear.

    Since that one bear doesn't care if the bullet that passed through him also passed through his 49 buddies, and since the 475 makes a bigger hole, and since it must recoil less than the 45-70... I like the idea.

    I think Marlin makes an 1895 model in that chambering. Anybody know anything about it? Can the action really handle the pressure?

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    Default 45/70...

    Please note that the 45/70 can be loaded to levels unobtainable in the 475 case, and much more potent velocities. Go to buffalobore.com...and look at the ballistics of what the 45/70 can become....Of course, they aren't a good idea with a "cowboy" cresent butt plate. With a Decellerator pad, and BB 350gr@2150, my 86EL is not the least unpleasant to shoot. With the original steel butt plate or a cresent butt plate, it would be brutal.

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    Member .338-06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by go_north View Post
    I think Marlin makes an 1895 model in that chambering. Anybody know anything about it?
    Short answer. They don't make one.

    It's not listed in their product line. If they did, it would certainly be on my Gotta Buy list-which gets bigger every day!

    Closest thing I've seen is the Puma in .480 Ruger. I guess there are some limiting factors in making a .475 lever gun, since the Puma is made in .454 as well.

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    Default check wild west guns

    Quote Originally Posted by .338-06 View Post
    Short answer. They don't make one.

    It's not listed in their product line. If they did, it would certainly be on my Gotta Buy list-which gets bigger every day!

    Closest thing I've seen is the Puma in .480 Ruger. I guess there are some limiting factors in making a .475 lever gun, since the Puma is made in .454 as well.
    I know wild west guns has a lever .500 s&w that looks nice.....maybe they will do a .475 linebaugh too....but then why have a .475 when you can get a factory loaded chambering even bigger

    My list just grew too....hmmmm.....500 s&w lever gun or .50 alaskan or both

    http://www.wildwestguns.com/EStore/M...G04/wwg04.html

    http://www.wildwestguns.com/CoPilot_And_Guide_Rifles/copilot_and_guide_rifles.html

    jedi

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by go_north View Post
    A while back, we were discussing pressure differences among similar loads, and the relation of that to recoil. A very specific question has grown out of that:
    Let's say I have two identical lever-rifles. One is chambered for 45-70, and the other is chambered for 475 Linebaugh. Both are loaded w/400 gr. bullets of the same make, and both are loaded to 1400 fps. Obviously, I'm using two very different powders.
    Which do I feel more?
    Identical rifles, using identical masses of powder, however different their burn rate, as long as the same mass goes out of the barrel as goes in, at the same exit velocity, would generate the same recoil.

    I will not speculate on "felt" recoil, 'cause I know people who think a .375 H&H is "poison", and believe a big-bore is an '06 with a 165 grain bullet. They are scared of anything over that. If you want to measure something, do it by numbers, not by a sissification factor.

  11. #11

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    There's another cartridge possibility too: 475 GNR. It's a full-length 45-70 case blown out and loaded with a .475 bullet... whereas the Linebaugh is that same case trimmed to 1.41", and then loaded with a .475 bullet. Obviously, we're still talking about using two very different types of powders.

    In the 475 GNR, a 400 gr. bullet could achieve well over 2000 fps. But I would have no need to do that. I'd probably still want the 390 gr. Belt-Mountain "Punch" bullet @ 1500 or thereabouts. I think a Marlin GG could just be rebarrelled for this cartridge. Anybody have any experience with it?

    And I was thinking about the recoil comparison again... I wonder if it just sort of balances out, between more slow powder and less fast powder. For instance, the 475 LB loaded with a 400 gr. bullet @ 1400, using smaller amounts of a fast powder, might feel similar to the 475 GNR loaded with a 400 gr. bullet @ 1400, using larger amounts of a slower powder. The "snappiness" of the first load might balance out witht the size of the second load. What think ye?

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    Member Big Al's Avatar
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    That is odd, about the .500 S&W rifle from WILD WEST guns. I tried to buy one and they told me they were looking for someone to build the action for them. That rifle has been on their back burner for the last three years. So do they really have it or not?

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    Default dont know

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Al View Post
    That is odd, about the .500 S&W rifle from WILD WEST guns. I tried to buy one and they told me they were looking for someone to build the action for them. That rifle has been on their back burner for the last three years. So do they really have it or not?
    Check those two links I put up....it sure does show a pic of one and has prices too....I would think so but....I really can't say.

    jedi

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    Yes they have four proto types. This has drug on for three years.

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