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Thread: spirit hole?

  1. #1

    Question spirit hole?

    I think that everyone pretty much agrees the blood loss that occurs internally, is in direct proportion to the shock and tissue damage incurred along the path as the bullet does it's dastardly deed....no more, no less. So I ask, outside of maybe a better tracking situation, how does two holes (entry and exit) make the animal die faster? If the bullet reached the offside, how much more damage can be done? The animal is going to bleed, regardless of an exit hole, so is the exit hole just to let a mystical spirit out?
    If you like getting kicked by a mule...then you'll "love" shooting my .458.

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    Default Nothing spiritual about it...

    2 sucking chest wounds versus 1. Or 2 broken shoulders instead of 1.
    Or a combination of the above.

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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    i guess the catch is you never REALLY know what your first bullet did until you open them up, but i know on bears, more lead seems to make more difference sometimes. maybe the more they bleed the faster they'll die or maybe they'll be bleeding great and you break the spine or nervous system so they die with out running, so on and so forth.
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    Default double damage

    Quote Originally Posted by Snyd View Post
    2 sucking chest wounds versus 1. Or 2 broken shoulders instead of 1.
    Or a combination of the above.
    Well said.

    Twice as many arterys too.

    Ever pour gas or oil from a one hole jug?

    Notice how it goes faster with an air intake two hole jug?

    Its only going to go as fast as the heart pumps it or muscle moves it along, but keeping it going faster is better.

    Every step he takes squirts double the blood out of the system.

    It also makes the diaphram work much harder and become less efficient.

    jedi
    Last edited by null20071; 06-16-2007 at 06:01.

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    Member BigHorn Hunter's Avatar
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    Jedi nailed this dead on.
    Only to add is that if you have seen a fully penetrated animal run away from you you will notice the vast majority of bleeding is being pumped out the exit wound. Check out data on human forensics as well. The exit wound is the desisive wound.

    I want a exit on every shot, and use calibers and projectiles to facilitate that. I am not a "wasted" energy believer.

  6. #6

    Talking die faster?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigHorn Hunter View Post
    Jedi nailed this dead on.
    Only to add is that if you have seen a fully penetrated animal run away from you you will notice the vast majority of bleeding is being pumped out the exit wound. Check out data on human forensics as well. The exit wound is the desisive wound.

    I want a exit on every shot, and use calibers and projectiles to facilitate that. I am not a "wasted" energy believer.
    I could care less about wasted energy either but blood pressure would seem to dictate how much and how fast, and when the blood pressure stops, so does blood loss (except for what effect gravity may have), so I can't see where two holes speeds up the blood loss ( unless it increases blood pressure) and the animal will bleed as much internally regardless of an exit hole. An exit hole make facillitate faster blood flow from the body, like the one hole jug situation was put, but would it make the animal die faster? It would be kinda like what the throat cutters believe, but once the blood pressure stops, it's a moot point (Yeh, I know grand pa did it). Yes, I know that the more damage a bullet does, the more effective it is.
    If you like getting kicked by a mule...then you'll "love" shooting my .458.

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    Default go deeper or bigger

    Quote Originally Posted by Maydog View Post
    I could care less about wasted energy either but blood pressure would seem to dictate how much and how fast, and when the blood pressure stops, so does blood loss (except for what effect gravity may have), so I can't see where two holes speeds up the blood loss ( unless it increases blood pressure) and the animal will bleed as much internally regardless of an exit hole. An exit hole make facillitate faster blood flow from the body, like the one hole jug situation was put, but would it make the animal die faster? It would be kinda like what the throat cutters believe, but once the blood pressure stops, it's a moot point (Yeh, I know grand pa did it). Yes, I know that the more damage a bullet does, the more effective it is.
    So you dont think that having two wrists cut bleeds more than only having one wrist cut?

    Having a hole in both lungs steals more air and blood than just one hole in one lung?

    Lots of veins and arteries have valves to keep blood from pooling...muscle contractions help this blood pump and assist the heart and blood pressure.

    Once blood quits flowing (no blood= no oxygen to brain)then about 7-10 second later the fight is over...more holes make it happen faster.

    Its also about getting stuck one way or another with a load.

    Which way is the lesser of two evils to come up short?

    Over penetrate or under penetrate?

    A load that performs flawless at broadside shots may not do squat except blow up on tough bone or muscle on a frontal or quartering shot.

    On run away grazers I wouldn't sweat it.

    On meat eaters or horned/tusked stompers, I would rather be good on bone and frontal shots going all the way thru to the rump and have pass thrus on broadsides.

    The only way I see to have the best of both worlds in one rifle is have "irons" sighted for stomper rounds and a quick detachable scope sighted for quick energy transfer mushrooming bullets.

    A double rifle would be good too if you have deep pockets.

    A true stroke of good fortune would be to have a rifle that shoots all bullets to same "point of aim point of impact."

    This is what A-Square ammunition tries to achieve with its dead tough, lion load and solid bullets.

    Carry a lion load or a dead tough in the chamber and dead toughs or solids in the mag depending on what your hunting world wide.

    These are by far the best topics....It means we all care about bullets and bullet performance....I know its alot of the same over and over but.....great thread maydog.

    jedi
    Last edited by null20071; 06-16-2007 at 10:25.

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    http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/b...s/methods.html

    Try this for some light bedtime reading.

    jedi

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    Member svehunter's Avatar
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    Of course 2 holes is better then one duh?
    If they are in the lung/heart area...

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    Member BigHorn Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maydog View Post
    when the blood pressure stops, so does blood loss (except for what effect gravity may have), so I can't see where two holes speeds up the blood loss ( unless it increases blood pressure) and the animal will bleed as much internally regardless of an exit hole. An exit hole make facillitate faster blood flow from the body.

    Not to be a wise ass but when blood pressure stops bodily functions have already stopped. The brain will have failed and unconscieneness will have happened before BP hit zero.

    JMNTBHO is that the exit is the primary leaker. Don't have scieneticfic proof no more than the bullet stop insiders can prove that the miniscule amount of unwasted energy will flatten your game. On small (up to 5-600lbs) hooved game this is all meaningless anyway. Quick stopping is wanted on big and or bitey game. Besides it has been proven over and over and over again that energy has very little to do with stopping.
    Terminal Performance comes down to
    1. Placement
    2. Bullet specs (diameter, frontal area, SD)
    3. Pentration
    Impact velocity once over 1500 feet or so is of little meaning.

    Again JMNTBHO

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    I think theres a slight flaw in a lot of the current the Theories.

    An entrance and exit hole is not going to make much difference - Its what you hit in between that matters. Its not going to make the animal bleed any faster, or slower - If you have no exit hole, it just means thats one less hole for it to bleed out EXTERNALLY. You will still get loads of internal bleeding. Most animals should be able to bleed out over 2000CC's of blood into their chest cavities easily.

    The only real advantage I see to an entrance and exit wound is its an easier blood trail to follow. Other than that, I dont really see there being any noticeable difference - As I said earlier..

    Its what you hit inside that matters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneLunG View Post
    I think theres a slight flaw in a lot of the current the Theories.

    An entrance and exit hole is not going to make much difference - Its what you hit in between that matters. Its not going to make the animal bleed any faster, or slower - If you have no exit hole, it just means thats one less hole for it to bleed out EXTERNALLY. You will still get loads of internal bleeding. Most animals should be able to bleed out over 2000CC's of blood into their chest cavities easily.

    The only real advantage I see to an entrance and exit wound is its an easier blood trail to follow. Other than that, I dont really see there being any noticeable difference - As I said earlier..

    Its what you hit inside that matters.
    Yup bottom line is: shotplacement is everything!

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    I'm with Jedi 100% on this topic.... with some acknowledgement to LunG's point. A heart, lung, brain, or principle artery will do the trick 100% of the time. But, will it do the trick in enough time to keep you from being tossed around? Will it keep your game from disappearing into the bowels of the worst gully on the mountain?

    The bear that chewed on my grandfather had two lethal wounds. Both shots penetrated his lungs, and other internal organs. He was a dead bear, but not quite yet. The third shot, while he was chewing on my grandpa, was sufficient to end his life on the spot.

    I went with a friend of mine in Oregon who poked a deer good with an arrow. We had a great trail, and it was coughing up more and more frothy blood. About the time we started finding pools of blood that were 10" or more in diameter, the trail vanished. We could see several places where the deer had stopped, and we retraced our steps over and over and over again as well as searching beyond the trail. Personally I think another "hunter" saw the animal from a lower road, (logging roads) and hijacked it.

    The game animals I have killed have all hit the dirt where they stood. Even if they did require a follow up. That, in my opinion, is the nature of true penetration. The entry wound may actually kill the animal in time, (if not instantly) but, the exit wound tends to anchor them regardless.

    When the bullet comes out the far side, it is bringing quite a bit of bone shrapnel with it. And, as Jedi said, it is also allowing for the letting of more blood. Those bone fragments are also good artery cutters....as the bullet continues to destroy supporting posts like the shoulder or spine.

    If I err, I'll err on the side of something that will add to my chances of seeing the animal on the dround where it last stood.

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    Good grief... just keep shooting til it's down.

  15. #15

    Talking my point also

    Quote Originally Posted by OneLunG View Post
    I think theres a slight flaw in a lot of the current the Theories.

    An entrance and exit hole is not going to make much difference - Its what you hit in between that matters. Its not going to make the animal bleed any faster, or slower - If you have no exit hole, it just means thats one less hole for it to bleed out EXTERNALLY. You will still get loads of internal bleeding. Most animals should be able to bleed out over 2000CC's of blood into their chest cavities easily.

    The only real advantage I see to an entrance and exit wound is its an easier blood trail to follow. Other than that, I dont really see there being any noticeable difference - As I said earlier..

    Its what you hit inside that matters.
    OnelunG: This was exactly the point I was making, but maybe there's something we're missing...think? Oh well, I guess I've been dissallusioned before, and probabley will be again. Duh!
    If you like getting kicked by a mule...then you'll "love" shooting my .458.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoggyMountain View Post
    I'm with Jedi 100% on this topic.... with some acknowledgement to LunG's point. A heart, lung, brain, or principle artery will do the trick 100% of the time. But, will it do the trick in enough time to keep you from being tossed around? Will it keep your game from disappearing into the bowels of the worst gully on the mountain?

    The bear that chewed on my grandfather had two lethal wounds. Both shots penetrated his lungs, and other internal organs. He was a dead bear, but not quite yet. The third shot, while he was chewing on my grandpa, was sufficient to end his life on the spot.

    I went with a friend of mine in Oregon who poked a deer good with an arrow. We had a great trail, and it was coughing up more and more frothy blood. About the time we started finding pools of blood that were 10" or more in diameter, the trail vanished. We could see several places where the deer had stopped, and we retraced our steps over and over and over again as well as searching beyond the trail. Personally I think another "hunter" saw the animal from a lower road, (logging roads) and hijacked it.

    The game animals I have killed have all hit the dirt where they stood. Even if they did require a follow up. That, in my opinion, is the nature of true penetration. The entry wound may actually kill the animal in time, (if not instantly) but, the exit wound tends to anchor them regardless.

    When the bullet comes out the far side, it is bringing quite a bit of bone shrapnel with it. And, as Jedi said, it is also allowing for the letting of more blood. Those bone fragments are also good artery cutters....as the bullet continues to destroy supporting posts like the shoulder or spine.

    If I err, I'll err on the side of something that will add to my chances of seeing the animal on the dround where it last stood.
    The problem with this is one part - "And, as Jedi said, it is also allowing for the letting of more blood." That line specifcally - Just because you have an exit wound does not mean its going to bleed more - If you dont hit any major organs, or veins on that far side, it will still bleed the same if you didnt have an exit would - It will just bleed into its body cavity until that level reaches the entrance wound.

    Pass through shots do not equal more bleeding nessicarly - its still all about what you hit in the middle. You'll just have more internal bleeding with no exit wound.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneLunG View Post
    The problem with this is one part - "And, as Jedi said, it is also allowing for the letting of more blood." That line specifcally - Just because you have an exit wound does not mean its going to bleed more - If you dont hit any major organs, or veins on that far side, it will still bleed the same if you didnt have an exit would - It will just bleed into its body cavity until that level reaches the entrance wound.

    Pass through shots do not equal more bleeding nessicarly - its still all about what you hit in the middle. You'll just have more internal bleeding with no exit wound.
    Hmmmmm...how do you get a bullet to leave a half inch exit hole through a rib and rib muscle without making it bleed?

    Isn't the damaged rib and rib muscle better than leaving that side undisturbed?

    Aren't two damaged lungs better to stop a fight than only one damaged lung?

    Isn't it better to break a scapula on the far side rather than the bullet stop in the lung area?

    Just some thoughts that sway my line of thinking towards exits being better.

    As I said earlier too, its about which is better overpenetration (undercavitation) or underpenetration (overcavitation), one bullet is rarely the best for doing everything under the sun.

    So usually we must choose the best compromise for our situation or carry two different loads.

    jedi
    Last edited by null20071; 06-17-2007 at 00:43.

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    Your bringing up subjects which I am not debating - As I said earlier in my previous posts - Its what you hit inbetween that matters - Not having 2 holes - Its what you hit that causes the bleeding - Not having 2 holes.

    Yes, hitting bone (i.e. ribs) is going to cause significant damage - But not any life threatning bleeding UNLESS it hits a major artery.

    The theory that having 2 holes equals more bleeding is a false assumption that should not be made - I speak on this because I work in the medical field (am an EMT) And there is enough room in a body cavity to bleed out internally - So as I said before - Its what you hit in between both sides that counts - Not having 2 holes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneLunG View Post
    Your bringing up subjects which I am not debating - As I said earlier in my previous posts - Its what you hit inbetween that matters - Not having 2 holes - Its what you hit that causes the bleeding - Not having 2 holes.

    Yes, hitting bone (i.e. ribs) is going to cause significant damage - But not any life threatning bleeding UNLESS it hits a major artery.

    The theory that having 2 holes equals more bleeding is a false assumption that should not be made - I speak on this because I work in the medical field (am an EMT) And there is enough room in a body cavity to bleed out internally - So as I said before - Its what you hit in between both sides that counts - Not having 2 holes.
    I just re read my post and it said nothing about more bleeding because of two holes.

    It said Faster because of the extra damage (twice as many arteries)and lack of sealed lungs...it also says it's only going to go as fast as the heart pumps it or muscles move it.....am i missing something?

    If what I said is medically false then I apologise...but I don't see where I said it?

    I think you assumed I meant only the skin or plurea when I clearly stated double damage (which is the post title)compared to a bullet stopping half way which makes "what you hit in between" what I was saying anyway too.
    double damage
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snyd
    2 sucking chest wounds versus 1. Or 2 broken shoulders instead of 1.
    Or a combination of the above.
    Well said.

    Twice as many arterys too.

    Ever pour gas or oil from a one hole jug?

    Notice how it goes faster with an air intake two hole jug?

    Its only going to go as fast as the heart pumps it or muscle moves it along, but keeping it going faster is better.

    Every step he takes squirts double the blood out of the system.

    It also makes the diaphram work much harder and become less efficient.
    jedi
    Last edited by null20071; 06-17-2007 at 02:13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maydog View Post
    I think that everyone pretty much agrees the blood loss that occurs internally, is in direct proportion to the shock and tissue damage incurred along the path as the bullet does it's dastardly deed....no more, no less. So I ask, outside of maybe a better tracking situation, how does two holes (entry and exit) make the animal die faster? If the bullet reached the offside, how much more damage can be done? The animal is going to bleed, regardless of an exit hole, so is the exit hole just to let a mystical spirit out?
    However, rereading maydogs post, it seems I misunderstood his post as well....He was only asking about breaking skin on the far side as opposed to the bullet resting under the hide.

    I guess in that case better tracking and just making the 2nd lung a sucking wound and less effective at air exchange is the only thing additionally accomplished.

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