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Thread: DCUA and TMA Permits reduced...

  1. #1

    Default DCUA and TMA Permits reduced...

    Anyone else catch that?
    Hope no one was planning on hunting DS20X or DS10X this season since it'll look to be even tougher to draw than the current near-impossibility.

    Delta area reduced from 75 tags per season to 60 (20% reduction) and Tok from 40 to 30 tags (25% reduction). No other draw areas reduced (or I didn't notice anyways).

    Total numbers of permits for Tok have been reduced in 2002 and 2010 due to failure to meet management objectives (average 36" ram and 7% harvest >40"). Another permit decrease: continued failure to meet management objectives, overly successful hunters this past season, or disastrous aerial survey results.

    DCUA is managed slightly differently: Objectives are restricted accessibility, mean horn length of 36", mean harvested ram age exceeding 8 years and limit harvest to 70 rams annually.

    Interesting to note that the sustainable harvest level set for a population of approx 1,800 sheep. However, at the time of the 2011 management report there had not been a full survey of the DCUA since 1995. If 2007 and 2008 surveys are combined (covering west and east DCUA, respectively) the total observed was 1,731. If 2008 and 2009 are compared (east and west again) the total observed was 1,626. There is a correction factor associated with aerial surveys of 1.3 to account for the difficulty of spotting sheep. When applied the population estimates are both over 2,100 sheep. Would be interesting to see if that correction factor is still relevant or correct. The author cites himself in a 1999 management report. One would think that in a dozen years that his efficiency would increase and thus correction factor decrease

    It is irrelevant in this case, as hunter harvest from 2000-2013 has not been close to "sustainability" threshold of 70, in fact it is only about 2/3 of that.

    Average harvest age objectives of the DCUA have been met, however the ages from the 2011 report say average of 9.3 in 2000 to 8.2 in 2010. Maybe this past season average harvest was less than 8 but still full curl? Hard for me to believe it would be substantially lower than 8 and warrant a permit decrease.

    Interestingly enough the average horn size has never been above the management objective of 36" and when controlled for age it appears that the average size at age is relatively stable. Perhaps this is due to the low percentage of hunter success in certain areas of the DCUA that act as a refuge, allowing the 'rapid horn growth" gene to remain in the population. Perhaps the TMA does not have such an area and thus has been more susceptible to growth depression via size selective harvest?

    I wish that sheep managers would be more transparent with their management decisions and not release management reports as sporadically. Also, draw results have become increasingly difficult to navigate and less and less transparent. 2011 was an excel sheet - 100% transparent, you could sort by name, residency, tag, etc. 2012 and 2013 were locked PDF which unless you were searching for yourself were next to useless, but if you wanted to scroll through 150 pages you could. Last years results were not even searchable - you had to know the exact last name of everyone and could not look for those who drew the same tag as you (or who drew the tag that I was supposed to get!).

    All speculation aside, I am disappointed in the further reduction in opportunities to hunt sheep in some of the most beautiful areas of Alaska.

  2. #2

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    Expect further reduction in permits over the next few years. With possible closure for one or two years.


    Quote Originally Posted by hoonahtic View Post
    All speculation aside, I am disappointed in the further reduction in opportunities to hunt sheep in some of the most beautiful areas of Alaska.

  3. #3

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    Yeah I expect it - and would rather them fully close and allow actual recovery instead of nursing a slow decline. And actually state the condition of the population outright instead of resource users trying to interpret through management decisions.

  4. #4

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    I have always been an advocate of total closure of trophy sheep areas, on a rotating system, each for about three years. This would allow the 7 to 8 y/o to become 10 to 11 y/o TROPHY Rams.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoonahtic View Post
    Yeah I expect it - and would rather them fully close and allow actual recovery instead of nursing a slow decline. And actually state the condition of the population outright instead of resource users trying to interpret through management decisions.

  5. #5
    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    Could go odd number years like the fall bear season on the ak pen or something. Hunting opportunities in Alaska arent about to grow....
    Www.blackriverhunting.com
    Master guide 212

  6. #6
    Moderator stid2677's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    I have always been an advocate of total closure of trophy sheep areas, on a rotating system, each for about three years. This would allow the 7 to 8 y/o to become 10 to 11 y/o TROPHY Rams.
    This briefs well, but if enacted would create a gold rush mentality. Meaning hunters would flood into these areas when they opened after a long close. There would be crowding and competition style hunting. No Thanks......
    "I refuse to let the things I can't do stop me from doing the things I can"
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  7. #7

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    So you prefer hunters keep harvesting 7 and 8 and 9 y/o rams. With very VERY few 10 to 13 y/o rams being harvested.....I would like to see more 46"-47"-48"-49" TROPHY Rams harvested. Like you would see if the Wrangle Park was opened to 50 permits for two years.

    Quote Originally Posted by stid2677 View Post
    This briefs well, but if enacted would create a gold rush mentality. Meaning hunters would flood into these areas when they opened after a long close. There would be crowding and competition style hunting. No Thanks......

  8. #8

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    I would like to see the regs changed to follow more along the lines of moose! For dall sheep spike/fork or full curl!

  9. #9
    Moderator stid2677's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    So you prefer hunters keep harvesting 7 and 8 and 9 y/o rams. With very VERY few 10 to 13 y/o rams being harvested.....I would like to see more 46"-47"-48"-49" TROPHY Rams harvested. Like you would see if the Wrangle Park was opened to 50 permits for two years.

    AGL4now, you know as well as I that there is no easy answer. If there was we would not be in the state we are now. What I would prefer is LESS hunters and more sheep. The how we get that accomplished is a complex question, since non res hunters kill most of the sheep, makes sense to me to start there. Let the games begin...........
    "I refuse to let the things I can't do stop me from doing the things I can"
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  10. #10

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    Great.....It works for me, as I am done with hunting. If people are OK with harvesting sub 40" rams, it is OK by me. But I would with great joy kick in $100.00 per year for a lottery to hunt the Wrangle Park.

    Quote Originally Posted by magpie View Post
    What is wrong with shooting an 8 year old ram? That is a MATURE ram. 10+ year old rams make up a very small % of the population. Even if you close it down you are not going to see a significant difference in 10-13 y/o rams. It takes a lot for a ram to get to 8, and it takes a hell of a lot to get to 10+. Winter, genetics, BAD LUCK, etc the list goes on.

  11. #11

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    I agree with you.........Raise the nonresident tag cost to $1,000.00 and require Residents to pay $50.00 for a Dall Sheep Tag.

    Require the contract signing guide to collect a $500.00 trophy fee for every they guide who harvests a Dall Sheep.

    Make it Illegal to use an ATV while harvesting Dall Sheep.

    More and MORE humans are going to keep moving to Alaska, and there will be much more hunting pressure.

    Quote Originally Posted by stid2677 View Post
    AGL4now, you know as well as I that there is no easy answer. If there was we would not be in the state we are now. What I would prefer is LESS hunters and more sheep. The how we get that accomplished is a complex question, since non res hunters kill most of the sheep, makes sense to me to start there. Let the games begin...........

  12. #12
    Member AK-HUNT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    Raise the nonresident tag cost to $1,000.00 and require Residents to pay $50.00 for a Dall Sheep Tag. Make it Illegal to use an ATV while harvesting Dall Sheep.
    More and MORE humans are going to keep moving to Alaska, and there will be much more hunting pressure.
    I like!
    How about $1000 and $150 though.
    AND
    I still can't figure out what's wrong with the "1 every 4" like all brownies used to be. Look at those now.
    --If you are serious about sheep you won't kill one every year (cause you'll have to set). You'll wait for the biggun= sheep will grow.
    --that leaves more little ones for not so serious guys
    --If you are serious and wanna kill a sheep every year- ya take younger inexperienced guys and everyone wins. You still get to hunt. The rookie gets the 34" er.

    Like I say-all that thought processes worked for bears…..

    BTW-Isn't it early in winter for the amateur game/sheep manager thread?

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    Great.....It works for me, as I am done with hunting. If people are OK with harvesting sub 40" rams, it is OK by me. But I would with great joy kick in $100.00 per year for a lottery to hunt the Wrangle Park.
    So now you want 40" rams and 10-13 year old rams? Ummmm don't we all? You do realize that the vast majority of rams just do not have what it takes to be 40+??

    Since you're old as dirt how many 40" rams did YOU harvest since you were around for the golden years?

  14. #14

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    Raising the nonresident price tag for sheep will do nothing to fix the problem. A realistic non res cap is the only option and will be fought tooth and nail by welfare outfitters

  15. #15
    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    We're days away from sheep survey info being made public, and the upcoming meetings in FAI and ANC on that and sheep distribution and population numbers.
    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...Data?p=1437265

    ​Stay involved, be part of whatever changes are about to come about.

  16. #16

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    Your so "CUTE" when your jealous.........

    Quote Originally Posted by magpie View Post
    Since you're old as dirt how many 40" rams did YOU harvest since you were around for the golden years?

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    Your so "CUTE" when your jealous.........
    Shouldn't you be working on your 2015 "BEARS EVERYWHERE AROUND HOPE" post? Guy sees one bear track and thinks there's bears everywhere....every year....

  18. #18

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    I DON"T live in Hope, Alaska. So I have NO idea if there are any bears there.......

    Quote Originally Posted by magpie View Post
    Shouldn't you be working on your 2015 "BEARS EVERYWHERE AROUND HOPE" post? Guy sees one bear track and thinks there's bears everywhere....every year....

  19. #19

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    An other Idea would be to squash hunters taking "HOPE" shots at Dall Rams. Maybe $2,000.00 fine or 180 days in jail......???? What is a "HOPE" shot, well the hunter is not 101% sure the ram is full curl, but "HOPES" it is 8 years old. So with HOPE in the hunters heart they take the chance. Oops....another 7/8th curl, seven y/o Ram gone for ever.

    Do you ever wonder how many Dall Sheep get buried in rocks by hunters because they were sub legal.......???? Be my guess that the number is several times the number of sub-legal sheep tendered for seal.

    Hell........it appears many of the new'ish assistant-guides also make this fatal (for the ram) error.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by bushrat View Post
    We're days away from sheep survey info being made public, and the upcoming meetings in FAI and ANC on that and sheep distribution and population numbers.


    ​Stay involved, be part of whatever changes are about to come about.
    Thank you bushrat! I'll be contacting UAF campus and seeing if they can re-broadcast to Juneau.

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