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Thread: A different harvest paradigm...

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    Member fishNphysician's Avatar
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    Default A different harvest paradigm...

    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
    http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/uploads/UP12710.jpg
    The KeenEye MD

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    Member Delta Tenderfoot's Avatar
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    A very interesting video; sadly, it presents only a single solution to a very broad issue and is somewhat less than honest in its definition of the palatability of river or lake caught salmon.
    I sat through several hearings on the closures of salmon hatcheries in the 90ís and it has left a very bad memory of agenda driven groups that have little to do with the actual progress to a root solution and more to do with a certain perspective or point of view.
    Maybe this is the way to protect certain fish stocks. But the emotional and fiscal arguments garner much more support than reality in these situations.
    On a side note, I am a fan of hatcheries and a very goodnews story is the million fish return of the sockeye to the Okanagan River this year.

    http://seattletimes.com/html/localne...ockeyexml.html
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    Member fishNphysician's Avatar
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    And this is how they RESPONSIBLY and SUSTAINABLY harvest those Okanagan sockeye while conserving the depleted chinook...

    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
    http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/uploads/UP12710.jpg
    The KeenEye MD

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    Thanks for the links Doc, good to hear from you. I'm a sucker for any video that mentions global warming in the first 45 seconds...

    I have to say though, I've seen many of the catch pictures you've posted over the years, and I doubt if you ever put fish as turned as these in your freezer. I know I don't.

    I hope we never have to exchange the diverse fisheries (which also responsibly and sustainably harvest) and robust runs my area has for this terminal harvest strategy - especially since it seems- in this case at least - that the lack of diversity in harvest methods has been accompanied with a lack of diversity in harvesters...

    Not to mention - the terminal harvest strategy here on the Kenai has not worked out too well for our Kings. Then again, we let everyone participate. We're building bigger parking lots as we speak...

    All joking aside, the terminal harvest strategy has been used up here. The most local example is the Kasilof Terminal area fishery. It is despised by every single user group - including most of the commercial fishermen participating - save the few people who benefit the most from it, those who've bought into this management strategy, or managers who feel it makes their jobs easier. I suspect this new fishery in your area is much the same.

  5. #5

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    Perhaps I should not be so myopic - our system is quite different from many others. I'm sure there are plenty of places where commercial terminal harvest makes sense. Just not around here.

    Also, couldn't the argument be made that you could actually wipe out whole genetic groups of fish easier this way?

    Perhaps I'm a little sensitive to "new paradigms" when it comes to commercial fishing. Mine has worked great for a real long time, and I love how many options that all Alaskans have when it comes to fishing.

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    Member fishNphysician's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smithtb View Post

    I have to say though, I've seen many of the catch pictures you've posted over the years, and I doubt if you ever put fish as turned as these in your freezer. I know I don't.
    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
    http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/uploads/UP12710.jpg
    The KeenEye MD

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    The endangered species forced a new approach. To say Doc it is the only responsible and sustainable way to fish is off base. It implies that fisheries in Alaska that have been sustainable for over a hundred years are not working or that managers have been irresponsible. That is pure hype on your part.

    Next, the video is so bias to one position and it is not about salmon. Look at the speakers - up river fisherman. The processor is probably a small niche processor who benefits from up river salmon harvest. The native tribes benefit. This is as much about allocation as any other salmon fishery.

    Also, the biological nonsense in this video is something else. I bet that every fishery they have and are calling a terminal fishery is a mixed stock fishery by their definition. Unless they are harvesting by small streams where spawning takes place they are a mixed stock fishery. It may reduce the number of stocks involved but it is still a mixed stock fishery.

    Finally, if one wants to go down a path to a new gear then it is the responsibility of the proposer to outline all the positive and negative aspects of the proposal. The video shows no negatives or at a minimum a solution for those negatives.

    We have had this discussion before. UCI is a mixed stock fishery that is having some low returns for a single species and even with that species it is not low for some systems. Are you suggesting that guides and private anglers be limited to spawning areas. Move fishing pressure to Funny River, Killey River, Slikok Creek mouth, Soldotna Creek mouth, and out of the main Kenai River?

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    Blatant propaganda.

    Way better to keep all fishing off the spawning grounds. Commercial salmon fishing is set up with a series of closures designed to get fish to the spawning grounds in regular pulses. Then the fish that make it to the spawning grounds are harassed endlessly 7 days a week. Better to have all salmon fishing in the salt. Better quality fish to boot.
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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishNphysician View Post
    A different harvest paradigm...
    Change comes hard... and there's nothing quite so interesting, entertaining, and sometimes sad, as watching a paradigm shifting without a clutch!
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
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    Default Where is the hierarchy of needs here?

    That movie is about the Fraser. Environment Canada says there there were "326 tonnes of nickel, over 400 tonnes of arsenic, 177 tonnes of lead and 18,400 tonnes of copper and its compounds" in the Mt. Polley Tailings dam in 2013. All that went into the Fraser River when the dam burst.

    In context, I have difficulty with the concept that the possible reduction of genetic diversity resulting from a marine vs. terminal harvest is the greatest threat to this fishery. We have a massive environmental disaster, yet we're worried about issues that should be far down the list.

    There are comparable analogies in Alaska--Is the marine vs. terminal distinction really the most important? Does hammering on trophy kings in their spawning beds really help the problem?

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by AKJOB View Post
    Does hammering on trophy kings in their spawning beds really help the problem?
    This has not occurred in the Kenai since 2009

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sockeye Charlie View Post
    This has not occurred in the Kenai since 2009
    Oh really? No one has fished on any spawning grounds since 09? Cite a source?
    Responsible Conservation > Political Allocation

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    The Kenai has essentially been closed to fishing above the Soldotna bridge since then. 2009, was the last time any harvest occured above the bridge, however there were two seasons of C&R in 10 and 11. Albeit it was a ghost town up there since the lower river was open to harvest in both those years. 2012, 13 and 14 have had no king fishing above the bridge.

    I dont need a source, Im on that stretch of water 45 -50 days a season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sockeye Charlie View Post
    The Kenai has essentially been closed to fishing above the Soldotna bridge since then. 2009, was the last time any harvest occured above the bridge, however there were two seasons of C&R in 10 and 11. Albeit it was a ghost town up there since the lower river was open to harvest in both those years. 2012, 13 and 14 have had no king fishing above the bridge.

    I dont need a source, Im on that stretch of water 45 -50 days a season.
    I don't think I'd classify any part of the Kenai as a "ghost town" in the summer. Any decrease in river use on the King spawning grounds has been more than made up for in sockeye fishing - both on the upper and lower river, and all points in between with regards to boat traffic. Exactly the reason that encouraging more terminal harvest in our area is silly at best. But we don't know if that's what Doc was suggesting because he hasn't explained...

    As for other areas of the state - hasn't a more terminal harvest taken place on our larger rivers like the Yukon for many years? They're still having problems. I think that this harvest "paradigm" will lead to exactly the same problems if poorly managed, and I have no desire to increase pressure on our freshwater ecosystems.

    It would be exciting to run a seine boat up the Kenai though...

  15. #15

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    I agree smith, I should have clarified in my statement about it being a ghost town that it was relative to king fishing. Anyone that has been in the middle below skilak during second run reds can attest to the crowds.

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    Member FishGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sockeye Charlie View Post
    The Kenai has essentially been closed to fishing above the Soldotna bridge since then. 2009, was the last time any harvest occured above the bridge, however there were two seasons of C&R in 10 and 11. Albeit it was a ghost town up there since the lower river was open to harvest in both those years. 2012, 13 and 14 have had no king fishing above the bridge.

    I dont need a source, Im on that stretch of water 45 -50 days a season.
    Then you would also know many kings spawn in the mainstem well below the highway.
    Your bait stinks and your boat is ugly

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    If we define a "mixed stock fishery" as a fishery where there is a substantial probability of catching salmon from a high productivity stock (e.g., hatchery fish) and a low productivity stock (e.g., ESA listed) at the same time/place, then virtually all salmon fisheries are mixed stock. The only example I can think of that is not a mixed stock fishery, is a terminal fishery at the intake to a fish ladder leading to a hatchery raceway. And, if anyone has seen this type of fishery, it's not a high quality angling experience. You can catch alot of adult hatchery fish (many of which are dark) with 500 of your closest friends, but it is not a pleasant way to spend an afternoon.

    I'm quite sure FishDoc was not advocating for this type of fishery. And neither are the folks in BC. As such, I missed the point of the video.

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    Member hoose35's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sockeye Charlie View Post
    The Kenai has essentially been closed to fishing above the Soldotna bridge since then. 2009, was the last time any harvest occured above the bridge, however there were two seasons of C&R in 10 and 11. Albeit it was a ghost town up there since the lower river was open to harvest in both those years. 2012, 13 and 14 have had no king fishing above the bridge.

    I dont need a source, Im on that stretch of water 45 -50 days a season.
    Kings only spawn above the bridge?
    Responsible Conservation > Political Allocation

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by hoose35 View Post
    Kings only spawn above the bridge?
    No, definitely not, although the very limited data we have on where da juvies rear suggests that they spend a lot of time up there. If we care about about the children, that is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sockeye Charlie View Post
    This has not occurred in the Kenai since 2009
    Sorry, but it's occurred since about 1970, the effects were born out in the 1980's, denial in the 1990's, economic-political wrangling and scapegoating peaked in the 2000's, and yep...implosion by 2009.

    Now you might be from Eagle River and fish that stretch of the river 45-50 days of the season, but I live on the Kenai and have fished that stretch of the River over 50 years. There is no question what happened to the mighty Kenai King - it was over-exploited commercially - by commercial sport fishermen.

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